ZSL London Zoo ZSL London Zoo News 2012

[leiclad20]

"I think that if gorillas can get it, that actually might have been better. I think one of the reasons Kesho was chosen was because of his calm temperament. With XYY, he might still be as calm, but if not, he probably wouldn't have come to London in the first place. Also, XYY (humans) are usually fertile".

While XYY males are usually fertile, you would never ideally breed from them as they could further propagate chromosomal ploidy problems. For example, when the XYY cells divide to form gametes, those gametes (sperm) will be either XY, YY, X or Y. When he bonks with a lady gorilla and concieves, the embryo will then be either XXY, XYY, XX or XY. So basically he could pass on further genetic problems to his children and some may be infertile. I apologise if this genetics waffle is boring anybody!

"Is it the most expensive zoo to visit in SE England - yes. That's excepting the Aspinall collections, which have never historically had to bother overmuch about getting visitors in through the gate. In a recession as deep as this, it is risky to keep charging more and more to exhibit less and less".

I agree Ian, and furthermore, the number of zoological collections in the southwest has gone up signiifcantly since the peak visitor numbers seen at london in the 90's. Visitors wanting to see animals have more choice now and in a recession the cheapest one may suffice. I think this can work against animal collections as they compete with each other - lots of parks have shut recently an many more are financially struggling. The RSCC shut this year and the aspinall parks are not profitable. If London keeps spending 3 mill on new digs for 2 animals, it will also be unprofitable very quickly.I refuse to pay 20 quid to see 36 acres worth of animals when i can pay 10 and see 160 acres worth at Cotswolds, so I won't be returning there.

 

[Pertinax]

Have they ever used AI with gorillas?

I can't remember now, was Tiny born before Keshoe came? How accurate is a male gorilla at knowing what babies are his? Any born after he moves in? Any born a few months after he moves in?

The first successful AI with Gorillas was at Melbourne, Australia, in 1983/4 with the birth of Mzuri/Ya Kwanza who later went to Jersey Zoo. It is still very difficult to achieve successfully in Gorillas and I don't know of other successful examples- though there may have been a few.

Kesho arrived in August, Tiny was born in late October. They failed with their initial idea of integrating them as a group before the baby was born because Mjuku( the mother to be) was very frightened of him- no doubt a natural avoidance reaction for a pregnant female faced with a strange male.

I think a male would attempt to kill any babies for several months after he takes over, and until he is completely settled in the group and any dominance squabbling/tension has disappeared. Maybe mating a female is the trigger for him to accept she is now 'his' and her resulting offspring are his too, but that's a bit of a hypothesis. I am fairly sure Kesho would accept any young born in his group now- either his, by AI or from a younger male living with him- as his own. The latter has happened several times in other Zoos.
In fairness to London Zoo, the four other Gorilla deaths (apart from Tiny) there in recent years have not necessarily had anything to do with their being at London, rather from their previous backgrounds;

f. Diana- came from Bristol- long previous history of failed births and rearings(about ten)-so had experienced a very unnaturally high birth rate and was also a naturally inactive and obese female.

m. Jomie- came from Port Lympne. Had Hepititis B which I think killed him. Almost certainly contracted while at Port Lympne.

m. Bongo/Bobby. came from Bristol/ ex Rome. Deprived early rearing in a circus, resulting in a stunted physique. Could have contributed to his comparatively early death at London after several years there.

m Yeboah. at London only a very few months- he could have brought his illness with him and then developed it at London.

Diana and Bongo/Bobby were probably very bad choices for the Zoo to take on,(though such decisions are very much guided by EEP recommendations nowadays and they often aren't familiar with the individual animals' personalities/backgrounds) Jomie and Yeboah were 'bad luck'. The best male they have had recently was 'Jock' who moved to Bristol because of incompatability problems and has done well there breeding-wise.

I think after keeping the old male 'Guy', who in his day was an icon of the Zoo, they will always keep Gorillas. I hope they continue to do so and with some flexible management I'm sure a good social group could still be achieved.

 

[devilfish]

While XYY males are usually fertile, you would never ideally breed from them as they could further propagate chromosomal ploidy problems. For example, when the XYY cells divide to form gametes, those gametes (sperm) will be either XY, YY, X or Y. When he bonks with a lady gorilla and concieves, the embryo will then be either XXY, XYY, XX or XY. So basically he could pass on further genetic problems to his children and some may be infertile. I apologise if this genetics waffle is boring anybody!

Of course this is all hypothetical, as I'm not sure gorillas even can get XYY syndrome. My point was that it would have been likely for XYY to have gone undetected (as over 95% of XYY humans are undiagnosed). Had this been the case, there would still be a fair chance of having a healthy baby (even an XYY or an XXY baby would probably count as a success) - which would have been a better overall outcome than with Kesho's Klinefelter's. If it had been detected, a whole lot of ethical issues arise, and it's probably best not to open them up seeing as it's not relevant to the current situation. I hope this makes sense, and I'm also sorry for boring people with more genetics.

 

[IanRRobinson]

Not boring at all, devilfish. Thanks to you and to leiclad20 for explaining this to us.

I think after keeping the old male 'Guy', who in his day was an icon of the Zoo, they will always keep Gorillas. I hope they continue to do so and with some flexible management I'm sure a good social group could still be achieved.

I do wonder if "Guy", more than any other animal, started London's inexorable fall from public esteem. The long years that he spent in solitary confinement in cramped conditions aroused a great deal of criticism.

People understood that "Chi Chi" was on her own because of the difficulties of doing business with China in the 1960s; the elephants had each other for company, and the horror of the Casson pavilion hadn't yet been grasped; and in the 1960s very few collections didn't keep big cats in barred cages and bears in barren pits.

But "Guy" touched a nerve. My father was never a great fan of London, remembering his less-than-ideal housing. I still wonder, given that three Eastern gorillas were obtained in 1962/3, why London never managed to obtain any female Western gorillas in the 1950s, when the UK still ruled the British Cameroons and the trade in great apes was a fact of life, however unethical it seems to us now.

 

[Pertinax]

I hope this makes sense, and I'm also sorry for boring people with more genetics.

Its not boring!- I enjoy learning about Genetics. I believe Kesho's is one of very few cases of Klinefelter's known for Gorillas. I have never heard of another.

If he was a human, would there be any likehood of any of his siblings having it also?

 

[Pertinax]

I still wonder, given that three Eastern gorillas were obtained in 1962/3, why London never managed to obtain any female Western gorillas in the 1950s, when the UK still ruled the British Cameroons and the trade in great apes was a fact of life, however unethical it seems to us now.

Yes, it was both sad and strange how long his enforced bachelorhood lasted, even into the era when he lived alongside a big collection of Orangutans. I never even heard rumour of attempts to import or otherwise get a mate for him, until the Michael Brambell era- he did make an effort. But even then they only managed to get one already-imported female- 'Lomie', from Chessington, because the other of that pair had died and Chessington had brought in another younger pair(Baffia & Kumba).

 

[leiclad20]

Pertinax you really have opened a can of worms now! Klinefetters affects 1 in 1000 males, and due to the extra X they are normally sterile, as trying to divide a germ cell in meiosis with 3 sex chromosomes to form sperm normally goes wrong. Other variations of Klinefetters include XXXY, XXXXY etc and the more X's you have, the higher the change of sterility and mental retardation. Or intrauterine death (99% of all embryos with chromosomal ploidy problems die and are miscarried).Potentially, a male who is 47 XXY could produce gametes either X, Y, XY or XX, so theoretically he could pass it on to his sons, or give a daughter who is XXX (produces mental retardation), but to do this he'd have to overcome his liklihood of infertility AND mental retardation, as is common in klinefetters.

 

[Shorts]

I refuse to pay 20 quid to see 36 acres worth of animals when i can pay 10 and see 160 acres worth at Cotswolds, so I won't be returning there.

Yes, but for the £10 premium.....

If you're a zoo nerd, you get the best reptile, aquarium and nocturnal house in a UK zoo together with an insect house (BUGS) and bird house which are amongst the very best in the country. Also the new Penguin exhibit rocks!

If you're local Joe Public or a tourist, you get a zoo (with Lions, Tigers, Gorillas and Giraffes) without having to give up loads of time and money (which may exceed any premium paid) travelling further afield.

Suddenly the premium doesn't seem too bad, especially when you consider the costs (compared with the time occupied)of many other attractions in London, theme parks, West End plays or sporting events.

 

[Shorts]

Pertinax you really have opened a can of worms now! Klinefetters affects 1 in 1000 males, and due to the extra X they are normally sterile, as trying to divide a germ cell in meiosis with 3 sex chromosomes to form sperm normally goes wrong. Other variations of Klinefetters include XXXY, XXXXY etc and the more X's you have, the higher the change of sterility and mental retardation. Or intrauterine death (99% of all embryos with chromosomal ploidy problems die and are miscarried).Potentially, a male who is 47 XXY could produce gametes either X, Y, XY or XX, so theoretically he could pass it on to his sons, or give a daughter who is XXX (produces mental retardation), but to do this he'd have to overcome his liklihood of infertility AND mental retardation, as is common in klinefetters.

Wow, what a forum (and someone was quoting William Rufus earlier). Awesome discussion.

 

[FBBird]

ZSL London Zoo

A couple of thoughts about Guy, including speculation which may be way off the mark:
London had paid a lot of money for quite a few Gorillas over the years, and Guy was the only one that actually stayed alive. Could it be there was some pressure not to spend any more money on a species that by & large did not do well in the collection? Pandas may have been almost impossible to get hold of, but seem to have been more viable than Gorillas until very recent decades.
When Lomie eventually arrived, I understand the two gorillas were 'just good friends', possibly due to Guy's long enforced orientation to humans. Lomie I believe did eventually breed under the benign influence of Howlett's; I'm assuming she is no longer alive?

 

[IanRRobinson]

Yes, but for the £10 premium.....

If you're a zoo nerd, you get the best reptile, aquarium and nocturnal house in a UK zoo together with an insect house (BUGS) and bird house which are amongst the very best in the country. Also the new Penguin exhibit rocks!

If you're local Joe Public or a tourist, you get a zoo (with Lions, Tigers, Gorillas and Giraffes) without having to give up loads of time and money (which may exceed any premium paid) travelling further afield.

Suddenly the premium doesn't seem too bad, especially when you consider the costs (compared with the time occupied)of many other attractions in London, theme parks, West End plays or sporting events.

Sadly, other collections in SE England, such as Burford, Colchester and Marwell present ABC animals more cheaply. And the cost and inconvenience of travelling into Central London is not inconsiderable.

 

[devilfish]

Thanks guys.

If he was a human, would there be any likehood of any of his siblings having it also?

Not particularly. As leiclad20 mentioned, the inclusion of an extra X chromosome is a random event. Some factors which slightly increase risk have been identified, like increased maternal age and maternal genetics, but studies have shown that for Klinefelter's, the 'recurrence risk' (the risk of the same syndrome occurring in the same family) is very low - nearly the same as for other members of the population.

 

[devilfish]

I believe Kesho's is one of very few cases of Klinefelter's known for Gorillas. I have never heard of another.

Apparently Seattle's Bobo (1951-68) was another example:

Pacific NW | A mystery over Seattle's celebrity gorilla, Bobo, is finally put to rest | Seattle Times Newspaper
(there's a brief mention just after it talks about his death).

 

[Shirokuma]

Sadly, other collections in SE England, such as Burford, Colchester and Marwell present ABC animals more cheaply. And the cost and inconvenience of travelling into Central London is not inconsiderable.

Depends on where you are coming from. There's a big population within London of course and then there are tourists who are already in central London.

Does anyone know the breakdown of where visitors are from? I'd be very interested to know.

 

[Tim May]

...I still wonder, given that three Eastern gorillas were obtained in 1962/3....

I don’t think that London Zoo obtained three Eastern gorillas in 1962/3.

In 1960 London Zoo acquired “Reuben” a genuine mountain gorilla, then in 1962, the zoo obtained two so-called “mountain” gorillas that were really Eastern lowland gorillas.

 

[chizlit]

Depends on where you are coming from. There's a big population within London of course and then there are tourists who are already in central London.

Does anyone know the breakdown of where visitors are from? I'd be very interested to know.

I came from Birmingham last year, first time in over 15 years, gave my review on here (which didn't go down well with some), and found for £20 I didn't get much for my money, I dont really need or want to go to a zoo for lawns and kids play areas.

Fact is London is expensive but visitors do expect something for their £ and for casual visitors I'm sure there are many other places to consider visiting.

Maybe it's not a fair comparision but the zoo's in Europe with bigger and far better collections and in most cases enclosures (I'm thinking Berlin and Prague) cost far less to get into.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

I am not a particular expert on entry fees in good old UK, however if it is significantly higher than other zoos (which compared to Chester or Marwell it is ... IMO), there is also something like London Weighting for Zoo Entry.

However, given the outlay of the zoo I think some of the criticism here is rather harsh and unjust. For goodness sake you are talking a zoo which is constrained by city limits, park ordnances, listed building status and the intransigience of Inner London City of London Mun to give over another 7-10 ha. up of norther Regent's Park land .. that is not intensely used.

 

[IanRRobinson]

One thing that probably won't be a London Zoo development in 2012..

However, it is definitely not the first time they have been sent to a European zoo to mark a royal event. In 1963 a pair of Tasmanian devils were included in a large consignment of Australian fauna (featuring many other mammals and birds) that was presented to the Zoological Society of London to celebrate Queen Elizabeth’s visit to Australia that year.

(thanks to Tim May)

With the attitudes of 50 years ago, the Queen's Diamond Jubilee might well have seen the ZSL acquire Koalas, Devils, Bilbies, unusual wallabies and parrots from Australia; kiwis and tuatara from New Zealand; cassowaries and tree kangaroos from Papua New Guinea; St Lucia parrots; and Polar Bears and Musk Oxen from Canada.

As I say, I don't suppose that's going to happen !

 

[Pertinax]

When Lomie eventually arrived, I understand the two gorillas were 'just good friends', possibly due to Guy's long enforced orientation to humans. Lomie I believe did eventually breed under the benign influence of Howlett's; I'm assuming she is no longer alive?

Guy was completely humanised- he seemed to happily accept Lomie as a 'playfriend' but wasn't interested in her sexually. So ingrained were the habits from enforced isolation that he continued to 'mate' with his concrete shelf instead of with her.

After that became clear, Lomie was sent to Bristol Zoo on two different occassions in the 1970's for mating with their male Samson and two babies resulted (including Salome, first ever Gorilla born at ZSL). Lomie was later sent to Howletts on a semi-permanent basis and joined Djoum's group. Here she had two more offspring. Finally she returned to her first home Chessington, where she had her last and final offspring. She died at Chessington a few months later.

Offspring;

f. Salome (father Samson)- born London. handraised. Now at Bristol Zoo.
m Saul. (father Samson)- born London. handraised. Died at Singapore Zoo.
m. Jomie (father Djoum)- born Howletts. mother-raised. Died at London.
f. Djouli (father Djoum)- born Howletts. mother-raised. Died at Howletts.
f. Shani.(father(J) Kumba)-born Chessington. mother-raised to 9 months. still at CHessington.

So only her first and last offspring are still alive but both have offspring.

 

[Pertinax]

Apparently Seattle's Bobo (1951-68) was another example:

That's extremely interesting, as was your previous post about the likehood of it occurring in siblings.