ZSL London Zoo ZSL London Zoo News 2012

[Del250]

Hi

I also went to the tiger talk at London Zoo yesterday!

Just to briefly add to Stulch's report, was it Vienna Zoo that they were getting some of their ideas for the new tiger enclosure?

I got the impression that there were discussions about the existing tigers going to Paradise Wildlife Park so this is not definite yet. I do hope that the zoo gives some more information about when Lumpur and Raika are going to be 'retired' as I am sure that a lot of visitors to the zoo will miss them.

The presenters did seem very confident about the new construction and its timescale and also that the new Sumatran tigers would successfully breed. I do hope that when the new enclosure opens that the existing tiger enclosure can be converted effectively and all this can include plans for that part of the zoo so the lions enclosure can be extended. The expanding number of the lions at the moment surely calls for more space for this species?



Del

 

[stulch]

Just to briefly add to Stulch's report, was it Vienna Zoo that they were getting some of their ideas for the new tiger enclosure?

When I was originally typing I was wondering if it was Vienna they had said but I had in my mind that they had based some of the finishings for Penguin Beach from the penguin enclosure at Vienna Zoo and I might just be remembering that!

 

[sooty mangabey]

Thanks Stulch.

I hope the architects didn't assume that the tigers weren't going to be kept in an uncovered enclosure. The idea of an escaped tiger in London Zoo is frightening. It doesn't surprise me that prices are going up and I doubt if the finbal enclosure will look as if it cost £6 million or whatever. I'd have much preferred fund raising for an exhibit to atract people in amphibians, especially as there is a new Muppet Movie that could have aided promotion.

At present, the tigers are placed in the same species, Panthera tigris, and I can't see how the zoos at Whipsnade and London are aiming to avoid duplication if they have an expensive tiger enclosure at each zoo. I also wonder what they wqill do about giraffes at both zoos. I know that, like tigers, there may be more than one species, bnut this has yet to be confirmed.

Let's just get this straight, Dassie Rat. Are you in favour of the building of the new tiger enclosure, or against it?

 

[Dassie rat]

Hello Sooty Mangabey.

I am against the building of the new tiger enclosure in the same way I was against Gorilla Kingdom. I consider both projects to be very expensive enclosures to house animals that are common in captivity, but which have not done well at London Zoo, recently. I can see no point in London Zoo spending a fortune on projects in an attempt to compete with Howletts and Port Lympne Zoos. London Zoo could be a world leader in keeping and breeding unusual, interesting species that are, at present, absent from ZSL and the Aspinall Zoos. London Zoo does a fantastic job in breeding some of the smaller animals and should be using this skill to save more species from extinction by keeping captive examples in order to provide a safeguard. If zoos hadn't done this in the past, the Arabian oryx, black-footed ferret, ne-ne and various other species would now be extinct. There are several vertebrates that could benefit from the space that will be wasted in pretending that the new tiger enclosure will save wild Sumatran tigers, when the same sum of money could have been used to obtain large areas of rainforest in Sumatra, as the RSPB has done.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

My questions seem to have been drowned out by the ongoing debate as to and if we really need Sumatran tigers at ZSL/London Zoo.

Here they are again:
1) the anoas not coming back in Wild Indonesia?
2) the Malayan tapirs were part of the whole investment. Am I missing someting here?

I would say both species would make an excellent work of the current Cassons pavillion.

3) the pygmy hippos going back towards the entrance where the Gorilla Kingdom is eventually?

4) what bird species' were we talking of? Certainly not the African bird aviary? I remember seeing other bird species out back last time at London, but cannot just remember which or what ...


DassieRat, out of sheer interest: you still volunteering (Education) for ZSL?

 

[Shirokuma]

Given that ZSL/London Zoo is heavily involved in Sumatera with tiger conservation I can see the rationale of the whole plan.

My queries:
1) the anoas not coming back in Wild Indonesia?
2) the Malayan tapirs were part of the whole investment. Am I missing someting here?

I would say both species would make an excellent work of the current Cassons pavillion.

3) the pygmy hippos going back towards the entrance where the Gorilla Kingdom is eventually?

4) what bird species' were we talking of?

I'm not an expert but as far as I know Wild Indonesia and the pygmy hippos at the current entrance are part of the 2007 masterplan which has not been closely stuck to and I'm not even sure if it is still in use.

The Malayan tapirs were only seen in the concept art for Tiger Territory, I don't think anything else has been said and nothing official.

I'm also curious about what the bird species are and if the bird of prey aviaries behind Gorilla Kingdom are remaining.

 

[Shorts]

I can see no point in London Zoo spending a fortune on projects in an attempt to compete with Howletts and Port Lympne Zoos.

Whilst I think the debate about whether the zoo should develop a new Tiger exhibit has reached a stalemate (I think everyone may as well agree to differ as most relevant points have been made (multiple times)) I've got to disagree with the notion that London Zoo is trying to compete with the Aspinall collections.

I really don't think they're in much competition at all, in that I strugle to imagine the average visitor debates which one to visit. Indeed, I'd imagine that a large number of visitors at London are not even aware of Howletts or Port Lympne (more's the pity).

I think that Howletts and Port Lympne's visitors are made up of zoo aficionados and those people reasonable local to either collection (not seemingly enough in Lympne's case) whereas London draws in more tourists and people from central London.

 

[stulch]

1) the anoas not coming back in Wild Indonesia?
2) the Malayan tapirs were part of the whole investment. Am I missing someting here?

I would say both species would make an excellent work of the current Cassons pavillion.

3) the pygmy hippos going back towards the entrance where the Gorilla Kingdom is eventually?

All I can say is I think your answer is really in this:-

Planning around the Casson i.e. inside and out is what they are working on at the moment.

and refer you to the masterplan as before.

I'm not an expert but as far as I know Wild Indonesia and the pygmy hippos at the current entrance are part of the 2007 masterplan which has not been closely stuck to and I'm not even sure if it is still in use.

The Malayan tapirs were only seen in the concept art for Tiger Territory, I don't think anything else has been said and nothing official.

What I would add to this is that the 2007 Masterplan has been included in the planning documents and been referred to for their last two major building projects i.e. Penguin Beach and Tiger Territory so It's definitely still in use.

As I've said on here before though, a masterplan has got to be slightly flexible so whether the Pygmy Hippos would stay in the current Into Africa or be somewhere else in what would effectively be an extended Into Africa (the area between the Gorillas and the current Into Africa) I don't know.

 

[Dassie rat]

Hallo Kifanu Bwana, I'm still volunteering for London Zoo. I do a day every 4 weeks in the zoo and work for an afternoon in the library every 2 weeks. I have seen various masterplans and other ideas after the years and, while I'm in the Information Kiosk, I know that I represent ZSL. This doesn't mean that I have to support all its plans, nor do I agree with all of the cost-cutting schemes being discussed at my work place. While an MP may represent a political party, that MP doesn't have to agree with the party's leader on all policies and should be able to be express contrary views. I feel the same about being on Zoo Chat. I very much doubt that there is such a thing as a perfect zoo and I have read several comments about expensive exhibits that are not particularly good for the animals and/or visitors.

Hello Shorts, I agree that this debate has reached a stalemate and I regret the fact that some of the comments have become personal and somewhat malicious. I accept that people are entitled to their opinions and realise that the new Tiger exhibit will go ahead, regardless of cost and opinions. I agree that London Zoo is not trying to compete with the Aspinall collections on all exhibits, but I feel that as tigers and gorillas do so much better at the Aspinall collections, I can't really see the point in spending vast sums of money on new gorilla and tiger exhibits, when visitors to London Zoo could be encouraged to visit Howletts or Port Lympne to see tigers and gorillas, while visitors to the Aspinall collections could be encouraged to visit London Zoo to see other species (London Zoo has a far larger collection of species than both Aspinall zoos put together). If zoos kept money-off leaflets to other zoos, perhaps they would benefit by attracting more visitors.

I expect you're right that many visitors at London Zoo are not aware of Howletts or Port Lympne, but that doesn't mean that London Zoo shouldn't encourage people to visit these zoos. Sometimes, visitors will ask for a species that isn't at ZSL and it can be hard to work out which is the nearest zoo they can visit. Port Lympne is a bit awkward to get to without a car, but Howletts is quite close to Bekesbourne station and visitors could also look around Canterbury if they had enough time. In a time when many people have financial problems, surely it would be a good idea to encourage people to visit zoos by offering discount tickets or the like. It's a pity there aren't more zoos in the consortium where you can gain annual membership to one zoo and visit other zoos.

 

[sooty mangabey]

I agree that this debate has reached a stalemate and I regret the fact that some of the comments have become personal and somewhat malicious.

I don't think that's fair, really. You (and Ian Robinson) have argued passionately and persuasively against the building of a tiger enclosure; others have argued equally passionately in favour. I don't think anyone has been personal or malicious. My - facetious - query above, asking whether you were for or against the tiger thing, was only a joke, referring to your continued and very strong opposition. My apologies if you saw it as being unpleasant in any way - it certainly wasn't intended to be.

 

[Dassie rat]

Hello Sooty Mangabey

I realised that your query about whether I was for or against the tiger enclosure was facetious, but I decided not to rise to the bait. I didn't mention you in particular when I said that "some of the comments have become personal and somewhat malicious". Zoo chatters are entitled to express their views, but we should really be careful that our criticisms are directed towards opinions, rather than individuals. I know from personal experience that what may be a joke to one person can be offensive to others. I accept your apologies and realise that we aren't too far apart in our opinions.

 

[Nisha]

The existing tigers are going to Paradise Park.

They are initially having two new tigers but there is space for two females and a male. The two new tigers are coming from Australia and the USA.

I don't suppose it was mentioned which individual zoo's they had been selected from? Good on ZSL for taking the initaive to import It's been almost 10 years since the last individual was brought in from outside Europe

I'm hoping for one of those lovely (and completly unrelated!) Indonesian cubs* that Australia Zoo managed to get there hands on but lets wait and see...

*They are adults now but were imported as cubs and handreared

 

[zooman64]

In reply to Sooty Mangabey, according to the International Zoo Year Book no. 43, Jersey Zoo (to use its former name) currently receives only about 116,000 visitors a year. It deserves at least three times as many. Its problem is not so much an absence of what I tend to call "box-office" animals (those mega-animals that can be relied upon to draw in the public) - it does after all have gorillas, orang-utans, bears, monkeys and (of course) meerkats and short-clawed otters - but rather its geographic remoteness and unavoidable reliance on a notoriouskly fickle tourist trade, that are largely to blame. No tourist attraction in the Channel Islands is faring particularly well at the moment as fewer people are choosing Jersey and Guernsey as the destination for their holidays, and I am sure that had it been set up in the south of England, as was Gerald Durrell's first choice, it would be receiving many more visitors. That said, I do think it was a big mistake some years ago for Jersey Zoo to get rid of its cheetahs and snow leopards. It currently has no felines of any description, and the species brought in to replace them (maned wolf) is not a big draw owing to the reclusive nature of the species. An open plea to the Durrell Wildlife Conservation Trust: bring back some species of feline; there are after all plenty of possible candidates in need of the captive breeding work that you do so well, including several species that are not well represented in captivity at present.

 

[Pertinax]

I don't think anyone has been personal or malicious.

Nor do I. I've been following this debate and its been conducted quite properly and rationally despite the necessary differing points of view. Sometimes people can take offence where none is intended, though I haven't noticed any of that on this thread really.

 

[TARZAN]

Hallo Kifanu Bwana, I'm still volunteering for London Zoo. I do a day every 4 weeks in the zoo and work for an afternoon in the library every 2 weeks. I have seen various masterplans and other ideas after the years and, while I'm in the Information Kiosk, I know that I represent ZSL. This doesn't mean that I have to support all its plans, nor do I agree with all of the cost-cutting schemes being discussed at my work place. While an MP may represent a political party, that MP doesn't have to agree with the party's leader on all policies and should be able to be express contrary views. I feel the same about being on Zoo Chat. I very much doubt that there is such a thing as a perfect zoo and I have read several comments about expensive exhibits that are not particularly good for the animals and/or visitors.

Hello Shorts, I agree that this debate has reached a stalemate and I regret the fact that some of the comments have become personal and somewhat malicious. I accept that people are entitled to their opinions and realise that the new Tiger exhibit will go ahead, regardless of cost and opinions. I agree that London Zoo is not trying to compete with the Aspinall collections on all exhibits, but I feel that as tigers and gorillas do so much better at the Aspinall collections, I can't really see the point in spending vast sums of money on new gorilla and tiger exhibits, when visitors to London Zoo could be encouraged to visit Howletts or Port Lympne to see tigers and gorillas, while visitors to the Aspinall collections could be encouraged to visit London Zoo to see other species (London Zoo has a far larger collection of species than both Aspinall zoos put together). If zoos kept money-off leaflets to other zoos, perhaps they would benefit by attracting more visitors.

I expect you're right that many visitors at London Zoo are not aware of Howletts or Port Lympne, but that doesn't mean that London Zoo shouldn't encourage people to visit these zoos. Sometimes, visitors will ask for a species that isn't at ZSL and it can be hard to work out which is the nearest zoo they can visit. Port Lympne is a bit awkward to get to without a car, but Howletts is quite close to Bekesbourne station and visitors could also look around Canterbury if they had enough time. In a time when many people have financial problems, surely it would be a good idea to encourage people to visit zoos by offering discount tickets or the like. It's a pity there aren't more zoos in the consortium where you can gain annual membership to one zoo and visit other zoos.

Dassie Rat, regarding money off vouchers to give visitors an incentive to visit other collections, could you tell me if London give out discount vouchers to visitors for Whipsnade?, likewise do Whipsnade give out discount vouchers to visit Regents Park?, I can recall London giving vouchers as an incentive ten years ago for Whipsnade, this was to encourage visiting Whipsnade to see the elephants which had recently left for Whipsnade that year.While we are on the subject of money,the suggestion in a previous post that London were spending"other people's money", it may have been other people's money in the past, but it was donated in good faith to the zoo for them to carry on their work, so therefore it is then London Zoo's money, ranging from children sending in their pocket money to substantial donations from millionaires, does this not prove what respect and affection people from all walks of life have for this zoo up to this day?

 

[Nisha]

Has it been mentioned what they plan to do with the old Tiger enclosure if/when Lumpar and Raika are relocated? Surely they won't let it go empty for long?

 

[stulch]

Has it been mentioned what they plan to do with the old Tiger enclosure if/when Lumpar and Raika are relocated? Surely they won't let it go empty for long?

This is what they said on Saturday:-

For the current tiger enclosure quite a number of ideas have been put forward which they are looking through. The next thing there will either be what they choose or something temporary for a year or two before what they have chosen. If they do something temporary first depends on what they choose.

In the 2007 masterplan it is in an area labelled "Lions of the Gir" with Asiatic Lions, Indian Junglefowl, Manuman Langur Monkeys and Indian Vultures I would personally be disappointed if this general theme wasn't followed through in the long term.

 

[Cat-Man]

Prehaps a smaller cat species?

 

[IanRRobinson]

Nor do I. I've been following this debate and its been conducted quite properly and rationally despite the necessary differing points of view. Sometimes people can take offence where none is intended, though I haven't noticed any of that on this thread really.

I really don't want to go on any further, but I am sorry to say that I got a bit weary of being accused of negativity when expressing deeply held views, especially having suggested more alternative strategies than you could shake a stick at.

What is being done currently at London Zoo currently is not what we were told would be done twenty years ago, and some of us feel a little disillusioned with that. I accept that puts me in a minority - end of comments.

 

[Dassie rat]

Hello Tarzan

I'll try and check about money-off vouchers for Whipsnade. I haven't seen any in the leaflets/maps in the information kiosk. I can understand that when someone gives money to a charity, that money belongs to the charity, but I feel that any charity has a duty to spend that money wisely. One of my friends stopped supporting another charity because of some of its political statements. As I've said in previous comments, I would agree with ZSL fund raising to help protect rain forest in Sumatra. I just feel that in a time of austerity, spending millions of pounds on a tiger exhibit, when the same sum could build housing, schools, save jobs etc and then stating the money will save tigers in the wild is a massive gamble. I prefer the Shepreth approach by encouraging people to save various animals in the wild; this includes animals that Shepreth doen't have. I understand this is an emotive issue and that people support different charities. I have a friend who works for the RSPCA and I'm sure that £5-6 million would have been better spent helping many more animals than 3 tigers.