ZSL London Zoo ZSL London Zoo News 2012

[IanRRobinson]

Its quite likely-I didn't know they had first planned to get rid of the Chimpanzees and couldn't place them. Quite possibly the 'labour intensive' reason for moving the Orangutans was put forward additionally as a public reason rather than them saying- 'we couldn't rehouse the chimps so the Orangutans are going instead'.

Personally I thought the Orangs were least suited of the three Ape species, to the 'uniform' design of the Sobell enclosures- despite the attempt to give them some extra height etc, they still look bored and listless a lot of the time- its just the way they tend to be, particularly the Bornean species(which all of London's were.) They are one of the hardest species to house effectively and at the same time attractively. Despite they bred very freely,(they will almost anywhere given fertile compatible animals) I think they were the right species to go from London.

The Ape block in the Sobells was a classic example of the 1960s/1970s mentality that sought to give three rather dissimilar taxa virtually identical accommodation. Twycross is the last remaining example of this in the UK.

Orangs always suffer most from this, because they're not given sufficient height or climbing space. An awful lot of captive orangs, especially females, end up obese in my observation, and it's hard not to make the connection.

Despite this, I still feel very sad that they went; there are not many orangs on view in the UK now. In my experience as a volunteer, amongst visitors who hadn't visited for some time, it was always the most thoughtful who wondered where the orangs were.

 

[TARZAN]

Breaking a previous resolution, can I just ask a simple question . Do people make a visit to a zoo that they hadn't otherwise planned, a) to see new animals or b) to see new exhibits?

And to nail my own colours to the mast: an expensive exhibit at London that saw the return of orang-utans (last on site 1991) , Giant Pandas (last on site 1994), Caribbean Manatees (last on site 1960) or (in an alternative universe) Sumatran Rhinos (last on site 1910) would be another matter as far as I'm concerned.

Ian, I would say that visitors primarily visit to see the animals, and they expect to see them in decent accommodation. If you read through my postings regarding what animals should come to London you will see that orangs are at the top of my list, giant pandas?, certainly, however, on principle I do not agree with the large rent books these animals now come with, I would not like to see the zoo be lumbered with this large rental fee every year considering how many rare and endangered animals London have sent to other collections around the world ex gratia. Sumatran rhinos, yes, but Whipsnade would be the place to have them in this day and age,and as for Caribbean manatees, not at the moment.

 

[TARZAN]

Tarzan, believe me I take no joy in pointing this out, but visitor numbers at London have flatlined at around a million a year. The Zoo still does not attract the numbers it did in 1990, the last year before the closure crisis. The steady growth in visitor numbers, seen in the boom years of the later 1990s and the early 2000s at Bristol, Chester or Colchester, simply didn't happen at London.

One is not being negative to suggest that the Emperor's new clothes appear a bit translucent.

Fair point Ian, regarding the "boom years" that the likes of Chester, Colchester and Bristol experienced in the late 90's to early 2000's that London did not share in regarding visitor numbers. Could it be at that time London was still under the shadow of the depressing time when it was under the threat of closure?, also what new exhibits did London present to the visitors from 1992 until 1999 when the Web of Life opened?,a new parrot aviary,a new children's zoo and the return of the bears on the Mappins,all very well but I do not recall any of them getting the publicity and media attention that Gorilla Kingdom and Penguin Beach received. Perhaps if the present financial climate was as good as what it was in the late nineties London's attendance figures would have increased on the opening of these new attractions.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Fair point Ian, regarding the "boom years" that the likes of Chester, Colchester and Bristol experienced in the late 90's to early 2000's that London did not share in regarding visitor numbers. Could it be at that time London was still under the shadow of the depressing time when it was under the threat of closure?, also what new exhibits did London present to the visitors from 1992 until 1999 when the Web of Life opened?,a new parrot aviary,a new children's zoo and the return of the bears on the Mappins,all very well but I do not recall any of them getting the publicity and media attention that Gorilla Kingdom and Penguin Beach received. Perhaps if the present financial climate was as good as what it was in the late nineties London's attendance figures would have increased on the opening of these new attractions.

Yes, just flick through some of the financial statements of ZSL.

 

[IanRRobinson]

It's fair to say that the closure crisis left a huge hole in London's credibility. Potential sponsors do not want to see their money go to waste; Vivien Duffield delayed giving the Zoo the money for the revamp of the Clore for years as she said that she didn't want her father's house to be a jewel in a swamp. Whether that capital was wisely spent is another argument - fact is, the heating system was outdated and certainly some of the exhibits had been tried and found wanting.

However, the philosophy of the time was in favour of much less grandiose exhibits, trying to use the existing buildings as far as possible. And it did get in (or back) a lot of exciting species:- Striped possum, Aye-aye, Potto, Red-bellied lemur, Francois' langur, white-cheeked gibbons, Giant anteater, Southern tamandua, Panay cloud rat, Sand cat, Maned wolf, Sloth bear, Red panda, Malay tapir, Bearded pig, Pigmy hippo spring to mind amongst the mammals.

I would point out just how many of these have gone after a comparatively short spell in the collection, together with species such as Black rhino and Arabian oryx, both earmarked as flagship species 15 years ago.

 

[Shirokuma]

However, the philosophy of the time was in favour of much less grandiose exhibits,

I hardly think you could call Gorilla Kingdom grandiose, it's a bog standard primate island that uses much of the already standing sobel blocks.

And the tiger enclosure will use much of the structures that are already in place.

It's true that they cost but these reasons have been discussed previously. Anyway, I feel I'm repeating myself, like many of us in this thread.

 

[IanRRobinson]

It's true that they cost but these reasons have been discussed previously. Anyway, I feel I'm repeating myself, like many of us in this thread

We agree totally, Shirokuma, except for the fact that I'd probably say "they cost too much". That's my point.

On another thread, a couple of US based posters have criticised the idea of developing Hollywood Towers more cheaply. I'm sorry, if UK zoos can't face up to the fact that the years of easy access to capital are over and may not come back for years, they are going to store up a lot of trouble for themselves.

 

[TARZAN]

It's fair to say that the closure crisis left a huge hole in London's credibility. Potential sponsors do not want to see their money go to waste; Vivien Duffield delayed giving the Zoo the money for the revamp of the Clore for years as she said that she didn't want her father's house to be a jewel in a swamp. Whether that capital was wisely spent is another argument - fact is, the heating system was outdated and certainly some of the exhibits had been tried and found wanting.

However, the philosophy of the time was in favour of much less grandiose exhibits, trying to use the existing buildings as far as possible. And it did get in (or back) a lot of exciting species:- Striped possum, Aye-aye, Potto, Red-bellied lemur, Francois' langur, white-cheeked gibbons, Giant anteater, Southern tamandua, Panay cloud rat, Sand cat, Maned wolf, Sloth bear, Red panda, Malay tapir, Bearded pig, Pigmy hippo spring to mind amongst the mammals.

I would point out just how many of these have gone after a comparatively short spell in the collection, together with species such as Black rhino and Arabian oryx, both earmarked as flagship species 15 years ago.

Ian, regarding donations to the zoo, as we both know the parrot aviary was financed with money that came from donations left over from the financial crisis of 1991/92, the children's zoo was paid for with a generous donation from the family of the late Ambika Paul, who, if my mathematics are correct, had still been alive today would have been the same age as ourselves.I would like if I may mention the generous legacy left to the zoo by the late Delaine Welch, lawyer and zoo volunteer at London Zoo, I did not know this lady personally although it is possible that I could have chatted to her while she worked at the zoo as a volunteer, I may even have had a chat with you or Dazzie Rat while you were both giving your free time to volunteer. What I would like to know is this, when Delaine Welch left in her will the legacy to London Zoo, was it just a simple donation to the zoo, or was this money specifically ring fenced for a new gorilla exhibit?, if the latter is the case, as someone whom I presume new Delaine Welch when this lady was alive, could I ask you or perhaps Dassie Rat what she would have thought of Gorilla Kingdom, i.e. where the millions she left to the zoo were spent. If you do not want to discuss this matter on here, no problem I understand, Thank you , Kevin.

 

[Dassie rat]

Hallo Tarzan

Thanks for yoiur input. I think I saw Delene Welch a couple of times and may have talked with her, but volunteers from different teams only get together once or twice a year. I don't think any of us can say what she would have thought of Gorilla Kingdom. When my father died, I found out things about him that I hadn't known while he was alive and I think Delen Welch also had her secrets. For example, I wonder how many volunteers knew how wealthy she was - I know I didn't, but then I was in another team. When the legacy was mentioned, it seemed that she donated it to ZSL, rather than for any specific project. Obviously, as other Zoo Chatters have said, it is up to ZSL how it spends donated money, unless it is given for a specific purpose, such as the money from Lord Paul.

 

[Tim May]

Just as an aside - London Zoo before Lubetkin, ie for the first century of its existence, was dominated by extremely unpretentious buildings. Other than the Mappin Terraces, I suspect that only the Lion, Giraffe, and Elephant Houses would have made much impression on the visitor, maybe together with the Bird of Prey Aviaries.

I’m not sure that I really agree with you about this, Ian; I think that several of the old buildings would have made a big impression on visitors.

In particular, the lovely old Antelope House (built 1860) would surely have made just as much an impression as the Lion, Giraffe and Elephant Houses. (This old Antelope House lasted for about a century; I recall it as a very small child.)

Similarly the old Monkey House of 1864 would have been a very notable building.

And I’m sure that the Reptile House of 1883 (built with the money raised by the sale of ‘Jumbo’) would also have a made a big impression on the visitors of almost 130 years ago. (Of course that was subsequently converted to a Bird House and now still stands as the Blackburn Pavilion.)

 

[IanRRobinson]

I’m not sure that I really agree with you about this, Ian; I think that several of the old buildings would have made a big impression on visitors.

In particular, the lovely old Antelope House (built 1860) would surely have made just as much an impression as the Lion, Giraffe and Elephant Houses. (This old Antelope House lasted for about a century; I recall it as a very small child.)

Similarly the old Monkey House of 1864 would have been a very notable building.

And I’m sure that the Reptile House of 1883 (built with the money raised by the sale of ‘Jumbo’) would also have a made a big impression on the visitors of almost 130 years ago. (Of course that was subsequently converted to a Bird House and now still stands as the Blackburn Pavilion.)

Agreed, Tim, but they weren't built as architectural statements. The aim of these structures was first and foremost to attend to the needs of their inhabitants and to make the keepers' lives easier.

I remember "Chi Chi" the Giant Panda, Onager, American Bison and Malay Tapir from the Deer and Cattle Sheds, rather than the building. I mourn the fact that, as Dassierat has pointed out, the tradition of building structures that could be put to multiple uses - so important on a site with limited space - ended at London with the advent of Lubetkin.

 

[Tim May]

Agreed, Tim, but they weren't built as architectural statements. The aim of these structures was first and foremost to attend to the needs of their inhabitants and to make the keepers' lives easier.

I remember "Chi Chi" the Giant Panda, Onager, American Bison and Malay Tapir from the Deer and Cattle Sheds, rather than the building. I mourn the fact that, as Dassierat has pointed out, the tradition of building structures that could be put to multiple uses - so important on a site with limited space - ended at London with the advent of Lubetkin.

I agree that they were not built as “architectural statements” but the point I was trying to make is that some of these old buildings were nevertheless imposing structures that would probably have made quite an impression on visitors.

I also agree about the importance of flexible buildings that can be put to multiple uses; just think of the numerous different species that have been kept in the Stork & Ostrich House over the years........

And I loved the old Deer & Cattle Sheds......

 

[dublinlion]

And I loved the old Deer & Cattle Sheds......

Me too ,I remember seeing a huge gaur and a huge greater kudu for the first time (early 80s) and being amazed at the sheer size of them. London at that time had a great atmosphere and was by far, my favourite zoo to visit. The only current zoo that reminds me of london of that era is the berlin tierpark with surprises around every corner.

 

[Tim May]

Me too ,I remember seeing a huge gaur and a huge greater kudu for the first time (early 80s) and being amazed at the sheer size of them. London at that time had a great atmosphere and was by far, my favourite zoo to visit. The only current zoo that reminds me of london of that era is the berlin tierpark with surprises around every corner.

Sorry, Ian and I were referring to the old Deer & Cattle Sheds that were demolished to make way for the Lion Terraces, not the ungulate accommodation on the Cotton Terraces.

 

[IanRRobinson]

Sorry, Ian and I were referring to the old Deer & Cattle Sheds that were demolished to make way for the Lion Terraces, not the ungulate accommodation on the Cotton Terraces.

dublinlion, they came down in 1976, so you may well not remember them. If you're interested, try to obtain a copy of "London Zoo in Old Photographs" (J. Edwards); this has a photo of this building, and most of the other space units that were on the Regent's Park site until the last fifty or so years.

It also contains old maps that show how the usage of the site has changed.

 

[Pertinax]

Orangs always suffer most from this, because they're not given sufficient height or climbing space. An awful lot of captive orangs, especially females, end up obese in my observation, and it's hard not to make the connection.

Despite this, I still feel very sad that they went; there are not many orangs on view in the UK now.

Yes, females often seem to become obese more quickly than males- probably connected with activity levels. When Bulu, Senja, Chinta et al left London and were sent to Paignton they were faced with a veritable 'wonderland' in the shape of the outdoor island with its mature trees. But years in traditional zoo cages had caused both obesity and seemingly blunted their adaptability too, and they scarcely ventured outdoors, let alone did any climbing. In this respect they were like Parrots confined to small cages that never relearn to fly. Senja in particular was hideously obese and hardly got of the ground. It was only after Paignton more recently acquired younger, fitter Orangutans from Germany that Paignton's enclosure really started to be used properly and came into its own.

I would add I'm not against ZSL ever having Orangutans again, provided a top-flight exhibit was specifically created from them- and I would far rather see Sumatrans kept for several reasons; more active, a better display, more holders required, numerically very underrepresented in the UK nowadays- so the obvious choice IMO.

And yes, Twycross is the last UK bastion of uniform Ape housing!, though Paignton's indoor areas are twinned and very similar for both their species

 

[Pertinax]

I would point out just how many of these have gone after a comparatively short spell in the collection, together with species such as Black rhino and Arabian oryx, both earmarked as flagship species 15 years ago.

ZSL's record with Black Rhino has been very mixed- plenty of births to the pairs held at both locations in the 60/70's era, but most of those calves were then later lost (some of them after leaving ZSL) then followed by a period of complete(breeding)failure with Jos/Rosie at London and KatiKati/Quinto/Emma/Berlin female at Whipsnade, after which they abandoned keeping them.

I always find it curious seeing the Arabian Oryx tucked away in their little paddock at Whipsnade nowadays- rather a comedown from their previous status as a ZSL flagship species.

 

[Dassie rat]

The zoo lives: Dr Jo Gipps at London Zoo has a good story to tell, of profit and success. And he has a plan. Jim White reports - Life & Style - The Independent is quite an interesting article about the problems facing the zoo 20 years ago.

 

[dublinlion]

dublinlion, they came down in 1976, so you may well not remember them. If you're interested, try to obtain a copy of "London Zoo in Old Photographs" (J. Edwards); this has a photo of this building, and most of the other space units that were on the Regent's Park site until the last fifty or so years.

It also contains old maps that show how the usage of the site has changed.

Thanks ian, my memories of that time are a bit fuzzy. I suppose I was just trying to give an "outsiders" perspective re the general feelgood vibe of london zoo in the 80s.
It has been interesting reading the differing opinions of posters in this thread.

 

[IanRRobinson]

The zoo lives: Dr Jo Gipps at London Zoo has a good story to tell, of profit and success. And he has a plan. Jim White reports - Life & Style - The Independent is quite an interesting article about the problems facing the zoo 20 years ago.

And it is not simply that Dr Gipps is constrained by his architectural surroundings in a way that no American curator would be. He believes the US solution to urban zoos, to theme-park them up with ersatz rainforests and walk-through aquaria, is not so much directed at the animals' welfare as at salving the visitor's conscience.

Interesting, because this has come to be the minority opinion. I'm not even sure that the plans for Hollywood Towers take this on board, and Jo Gipps presided over them.