ZSL London Zoo ZSL London Zoo News 2014

[Pertinax]

.

A bachelor group of Asiatic Lions , or a pair (does anyone else think that lions seem perfectly happy in a smallish group or even on their own?)

Its also worth noting that Asian Lions do normally live in smaller prides than Africans. Frequently just a Lioness or two with their cubs, with maybe an adult male (the father), who may join them temporarily for periods and then leave again. Other adult males often associate together in pairs, or just live singly. I'm not suggesting they wouldn't live easily in a slightly larger grouping also, as is being suggested in ZSL's plans, but yes, they would evidently be happy with small groupings too.

London Zoo have to have Lions, no doubt. If they want to be serious with Asian Lions, why not have them at Whipsnade also, instead of the generic Africans? Whipsnade could either hold any surplus males and/or a secondary breeding group.

 

[Pertinax]

Bristol has (if I am right), lost a few of its big name species over the years? for the size it is, I think Bristol is impressive but I feel London zoo has more to offer, plus its a better day out in terms of time to wander around.

Bristol seemed to gradually reduce much of its selection of large animals deliberately, as species died off or phased out and weren't replaced. They accepted the limitations of space on such a small site and went for a larger range of smaller species and innovative displays such as the 'Seals & Coasts' and Nocturnal House exhibits. By remodelling the old Ape House for a Nocturnal House, the Cat cages for Lions, the Elephant House for Gorillas, the Rhino House for Pygmy Hippos, and doing away with the Bear pits entirely for Seals and Coasts, there's not much evidence left of many of the larger animals that once lived there. Its left them with only three really major/large animal species- Gorillas, Lions & Okapi-the latter may now have all moved to the new Hollywood Towers 'Wild Place' estate. (Pygmy Hippo Seals and Tapir can probably be classified 'large' also).

By contrast, many of London's losses, apart from the Elephants and Rhinos from the Casson building, and the silly decision to remove Sealions, seem to have been less deliberate- just a gradual attrition over many years and the larger area compared to Bristol, coupled with the number of enclosures still evidently built for large animals no longer there, produces that vaguely 'empty' feeling that still hangs over the Zoo.

 

[Shirokuma]

I think whether people go to London Zoo or Colchester is a moot point. As communityzoo rightly said, London Zoo's competition is other London attractions, not other zoos in the South East. It's also important to note the number of international and domestic tourists who visit the zoo. But I feel we are having the same discussions over and over...

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

I hope this does not come across as being awkward but I really don't understand the problem many have with the new lion enclosure? if I am right the current lion area has an aviary, lions (obviously), hippo's and a couple of monkey species. the whole area looks and feels depressing and as much as I like the lion terraces for historic purpose the much larger new lion area is crucial. If a zoo loses species but creates bigger and better homes for existing animals, that HAS to be better surely?

also this idea of unused space, the fact is has lawns etc makes the zoo look great and gives it character. much the same at Whipsnade, I have been so many times to Whipsnade I have lost count and would hate it if it lost its wide spaces.

im sure there are more visitors to zoo's each year then zoo enthusiasts like us. the zoo has to run as a business and work at what will bring in the visitors so it can build new enclosures, look after its current animals and fund its work abroad. 'average' people want to see tigers, lions, giraffes, penguins etc and not anoa for example. maybe I am wrong, but sometimes it feels like people are missing the point on here? if that's wrong I apologise but a zoo should put the animals first and what people (average zoo visitor and enthusiast) second. so what if they have less? as long as the animals are happy and in bigger and better enclosures, surely that's the most important thing?

 

[Pertinax]

as long as the animals are happy and in bigger and better enclosures, surely that's the most important thing?

I think most people on here recognise the need for fresh and larger accomodation for the Lions, and that the current area is rather rundown and badly in need of an upgrade. The main division seems to be in whether they should have a completely new enclosure, as is planned now at considerable cost, or whether at a much reduced cost, they could have been housed on the lower level of the Mappin Terraces, using that space more effectively than the Australian Outback display currently does, and allowing the existing Cat Terraces, possibly remodelled, to be given over to other species, including some of the ones which live there currently. Much of the above discussion seems to be about this, rather than whether or not the Lions should have a larger enclosure- which most people seem to agree on.

 

[Pertinax]

Hi -I used to post at Johnstoni, and before then Hadley,

That solves something for me- I always thought 'Hadleigh' posted like 'Johnstonii' and now I know why.

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

I think most people on here recognise the need for fresh and larger accomodation for the Lions, and that the current area is rather rundown and badly in need of an upgrade. The main division seems to be in whether they should have a completely new enclosure, as is planned now at considerable cost, or whether at a much reduced cost, they could have been housed on the Mappin Terraces and the current Cat Terraces given over to other species, including some of the ones which live there currently. Many of the above arguments seem to centre on this, rather than whether or not the Lions should have a larger enclosure- which most people seem to agree on.

yeah, I can see the split, I think its interesting. I would argue that the idea of using the mappin's has two problems. One I don't think it would be big enough/any bigger then what they have now plus when they had the sloth bears, I believe one of the reasons for them leaving was the awkwardness in the sleeping areas etc? I personally don't feel the mappin's is best suited to housing cats (neither do I think it should have wallabys but that's another point).

I also I don't feel that the current cat area Is suitable for primates etc. I think its an area of the zoo which needs to be completely redesigned. I guess financially using existing facilities would be better, but when neither is really (in my opinion) a great option, the new lion enclosure looks fantastic.

 

[Pertinax]

I believe one of the reasons for them leaving was the awkwardness in the sleeping areas etc? .

I also I don't feel that the current cat area Is suitable for primates etc. I think its an area of the zoo which needs to be completely redesigned.

As mentioned above somewhere, there is no provision for public indoor viewing on the Mappins which is another big drawback to its usage for Lions, and so yet more cost would be involved if that was somehow to be provided, though probably impossible in an area deemed largely unsafe for public access? This is all hypothetical of course as we know what is planned for the Lions now.

Regarding the existing Cat Terraces. I don't like seeing the Monkeys in those cages either- with the (temporary) Pygmy Hippos using the old Tiger enclosure, the whole area is currently a species mish mash far removed from its original concept and design. Its also, like the former Sobell Monkey pavilions, very much of its time and so in need of change I think.

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

As mentioned above somewhere, there is no provision for public indoor viewing on the Mappins which is another big drawback to its usage for Lions, and so yet more cost would be involved if that was somehow to be provided, though probably impossible in an area deemed largely unsafe for public access? This is all hypothetical of course as we know what is planned for the Lions now.

Regarding the existing Cat Terraces. I don't like seeing the Monkeys in those cages either- with the (temporary) Pygmy Hippos using the old Tiger enclosure, the whole area is currently a species mish mash far removed from its original concept and design. Its also, like the former Sobell Monkey pavilions, very much of its time and so in need of change I think.

I think the Mappin's is wasted as a Australia area, but Lions I don't think was/is the answer. as you say its hypothetical as we know the plans for the lions but I don't think it could ever could be an option. I don't like suggesting what could be in a exhibit as the people who work at the zoo have a much better idea then me, but the Mappin's is not suited to a 'large' animal.

I agree that it is now a mish mash, and as much as I enjoy the area (for sentimental and historic reasons), as you say it is of its time and a change is much needed. an area of three much better enclosures (Lions, Langurs, Hornbills) is much better then the current system. Besides the primates are only there due to the Gorilla development.

 

[Shirokuma]

I find it very interesting that some people are highly critical of the high profile developments insisting that enclosures can be done more simply and on a smaller budget yet are also critical of the simple revamp of the Mappin terraces which I feel won't be forever but given the complexities of that part of the zoo is an effective and satisfactory compromise.

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

I find it very interesting that some people are highly critical of the high profile developments insisting that enclosures can be done more simply and on a smaller budget yet are also critical of the simple revamp of the Mappin terraces which I feel won't be forever but given the complexities of that part of the zoo is an effective and satisfactory compromise.

as I think is clear, I am interested/surprised that some are highly critical. Its not as if the zoo decided to do a cheap lion enclosure. it has chosen the more expensive plan, out of its own choice. I personally feel that as the plans are decided, support is what is needed.

 

[pipaluk]

I think whether people go to London Zoo or Colchester is a moot point. As communityzoo rightly said, London Zoo's competition is other London attractions, not other zoos in the South East. It's also important to note the number of international and domestic tourists who visit the zoo. But I feel we are having the same discussions over and over...

Sorry, but I accept the point that the zoo has to compete with other attractions in London (it will probably get the tourists regardless of any changes it makes), but to say it doesn't have to compete with other zoos for visitors from outside London is nonsense. I am a prime example of that: there is a reason that I visit London on average once a year whilst visiting Colchester 3 or 4 times a year & Whipsnade 5 + times and it isn't time ( all roughly an hour away and expense isn't much of a factor either.

Most people living in my area make the same choices if they want to visit a zoo.

As for having the same discussions, that's because London keep making similar mistakes which a few of us dare to question. when we do , the same handful of people come back with the same arguments too!

If the zoo was following the path I would prefer, I wonder how many of your camp would be criticising the zoo and suggesting a plan like the current one instead- Not Many I would suggest!

 

[pipaluk]

I think the Mappin's is wasted as a Australia area, but Lions I don't think was/is the answer. as you say its hypothetical as we know the plans for the lions but I don't think it could ever could be an option. I don't like suggesting what could be in a exhibit as the people who work at the zoo have a much better idea then me, but the Mappin's is not suited to a 'large' animal.

I agree that it is now a mish mash, and as much as I enjoy the area (for sentimental and historic reasons), as you say it is of its time and a change is much needed. an area of three much better enclosures (Lions, Langurs, Hornbills) is much better then the current system. Besides the primates are only there due to the Gorilla development.

I think people are missing the point slightly here, it isn't just about whether the Lions are put on the Mappin Terraces or not. It is one alternative, but not the only one which may be better than the existing plan.

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

I think people are missing the point slightly here, it isn't just about whether the Lions are put on the Mappin Terraces or not. It is one alternative, but not the only one which may be better than the existing plan.

sorry if it sounded like I was focusing on that point, I am just completely lost as to why the proposed plan is causing such a problem? to me personally I cant see/find any problem with the current plan. Im sure the ZSL have planned and looked through all the alternatives. they are the people with the behind the scenes know how etc. Maybe I am missing the apparent bad points, but I really cant find any.

 

[pipaluk]

sorry if it sounded like I was focusing on that point, I am just completely lost as to why the proposed plan is causing such a problem? to me personally I cant see/find any problem with the current plan. Im sure the ZSL have planned and looked through all the alternatives. they are the people with the behind the scenes know how etc. Maybe I am missing the apparent bad points, but I really cant find any.

It isn't just you that is drawing this solely into a Mappins V Current Plan argument, although I replied to your post, others are doing the same.

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

It isn't just you that is drawing this solely into a Mappins V Current Plan argument, although I replied to your post, others are doing the same.

what I wanted to get across is that I think the debate against the plans for the new lion enclosure is just confusing as I cant see why there is a problem with the plans. its not just about the mappin's etc its the fact I am lost as to why there is a problem with the plans.

I have read the comments etc and am lost as to the problem.

 

[pipaluk]

what I wanted to get across is that I think the debate against the plans for the new lion enclosure is just confusing as I cant see why there is a problem with the plans. its not just about the mappin's etc its the fact I am lost as to why there is a problem with the plans.

I have read the comments etc and am lost as to the problem.

I have already been accused of repeating myself , so I will try not to again!

I suggest you read through this thread & the last 2 years , as many points have been made by myself and a few others about London's collection and development plans- please don't interpret that as rudeness.

To sum it up in 2 words - Missed Oppurtunity

I've explained I don't like the gimmicks and the suggestion of more domestic animals seems daft to me.

One of my biggest problems is London carnivore collection = Not Very Good (Understatement of the year)

Once the serval have made way for the dozen lions, it will consist of 7 species: Meerkat X2 , Asian Small clawed otter , Coati, Yellow Mongoose X2, Hunting dog, Asian Lion & Sumatran Tiger (possibly Kinkajou, but last I knew it was in the Casson & that's closed) . The first 2 listed are the 2 most common species in a UK zoo, whilst Coati aren't far behind. Nothing particularly rare in the UK and not much quantity either!

I was at Shepreth the other day, a zoo of probably less than 10 acres, they managed to find room for 11 carnivores ( not an awful lot else granted!)

 

[IanRRobinson]

As for having the same discussions, that's because London keep making similar mistakes which a few of us dare to question. when we do , the same handful of people come back with the same arguments too!

If the zoo was following the path I would prefer, I wonder how many of your camp would be criticising the zoo and suggesting a plan like the current one instead- Not Many I would suggest!

Absolutely. And there is another issue, which I have raised repeatedly ; if ZSL spend top dollar in a hugely expensive exhibit for Asiatic Lions, they use up capital that could (IMHO should!) be used for other projects.

To pick two obvious candidates: the accommodation for Common Hippopotamus at Whipsnade is disgraceful. Poor Lola and her calf live in a den that is the size of the one accommodating their Pigmy Hippo cousins, a quarter of their size. If they were being kept like that at London there would be screams of protest, and quite rightly. Common Hippo are probably Whipsnade's most popular species, but they will be wallowing in you-know-what for at least another year whilst London spends millions on lions.

And surely the case for getting back Eastern Black Rhino needs airing? Using my words with care, the Kentish organisation that holds around half of Europe's michaeli seems increasingly a law unto itself. Meanwhile the price of rhino horn shoots through the roof. The case for bringing the taxon back to Whipsnade (and a structured approach to getting the ten acres could have rhino back at London, I believe) really is hard to ignore. But it will need money to house (say) 2:3 extra rhino at Whipsnade.

Money that at the moment seems earmarked for putting Great Hornbills into an aviary that will not be tall enough, replacing a conservation-dependent langur with one that is kept virtually nowhere else in Europe, and creating an enclosure for lions that will probably see them no more active than they were before.

It's a choice, but with respect I feel it's a choice that is open to criticism.

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

I guess at the end of the day (hate that phrase but cant think of a better way to word it) we can debate/discuss as long as we like, but some people on a zoo forum is not going to change what a society as big as the ZSL do. We can disagree/agree on what we think should happen but we can all agree (I hope) that the fact the Lion's are getting a bigger, better home is a good thing. I'm not saying agreeing on the design etc, but the better home for the Lion's. I assume I am not alone in my views, and I am aware there are loads who disagree. The great thing about a site like this is that everyone can have an opinion and view.

Just commenting on a couple of points, I would argue that Shepreth, whilst having Tigers etc, does not (in my opinion) provide the best accommodation for the tiger's especially. For me its an example of having species on a small site so it can say it has Tiger's, rather then providing bigger enough space. Its not the worst collection ever, but it is far from being the best collection in the UK.

I would also suggest that for me, the Hippo house at Whipsnade serves well. But as I said, the great thing about this site is that we can debate and discuss.

 

[pipaluk]

I guess at the end of the day (hate that phrase but cant think of a better way to word it) we can debate/discuss as long as we like, but some people on a zoo forum is not going to change what a society as big as the ZSL do. We can disagree/agree on what we think should happen but we can all agree (I hope) that the fact the Lion's are getting a bigger, better home is a good thing. I'm not saying agreeing on the design etc, but the better home for the Lion's. I assume I am not alone in my views, and I am aware there are loads who disagree. The great thing about a site like this is that everyone can have an opinion and view.

Just commenting on a couple of points, I would argue that Shepreth, whilst having Tigers etc, does not (in my opinion) provide the best accommodation for the tiger's especially. For me its an example of having species on a small site so it can say it has Tiger's, rather then providing bigger enough space. Its not the worst collection ever, but it is far from being the best collection in the UK.

I would also suggest that for me, the Hippo house at Whipsnade serves well. But as I said, the great thing about this site is that we can debate and discuss.

Firstly, I have no problem with difference of opinion and have no intention of falling out with anyone, if everyone agreed on everything there would be little point in this site except to supply a string of news and facebook information.
Whilst conscious that this is a London thread so not wanting to string out a debate on Shepreth, I don't think their tiger accommodation is particularly good either, but I didn't claim that it was. I would say it is just about adequate for a pair of non-breeding impure tigers that I think were rescued from a circus, it certainly isn't cruel and they have lived long lives (both 16). I wouldn't describe any of the other carnivore enclosures as inadequate either. I expect when the existing tigers die that they will be replaced with more non-breeding or rescued animals.

I was not trying to suggest Shepreth was a better zoo than London , just that it managed to display more carnivores- I tried to qualify this by saying it didn't have a lot else.