ZSL London Zoo ZSL London Zoo News 2016

[tetrapod]

No it doesn't but B/W Colobus are very free breeders in Zoos and given the scope the current group could easily reach that size in a few years which is what the plan alludes to-space being the main constraint to group size normally.

They would need to have a plan to house surplus males because while the adult male is tolerant of young males, as soon as they get to a similar size as him then there will be aggression (personal experience). The Snowdon ain't that big... Just think that 30 is an unrealistic number in captivity.

 

[Pertinax]

Their plan, not mine... Actually it is a pretty big space- less than that sort of number and they wouldn't present any sort of spectacle. I don't know what might happen with younger males etc. My own feeling is a Colobus group might spend a lot of time in a big 'huddle' sleeping anyway.:

 

[Panthera1981]

One of the press releases also states that there will be other primate species mixed in with the colobus. I know London failed to successfully mix their colobus with the gorillas, but what would they be tolerant of in a captive environment?

Also, other than a lot of ibis, what bird species remain in the Snowdon?

 

[Max Blundell]

I have a Feeling that the Snowdon is Not Big enough for 30 Colobus Monkey, Smaller Monkeys, Forest Antelope (Bongo?), Great Grey Parrots, Birds, Red River Hogs and Pygmy Hippo

Unless they Only place the Colobus, Birds (Grey Parrot) and The Red River Hog to the Snowdon

or they buy more Land and Extend the Length of the Snowdon to fit all the species in together

Also If they want to Bring in More Animals and Extend the Zoo, why don't the Zoo Just Purchase and get planning permission to Extend the Zoo onto the Prince Albert Road And the Primrose Hill Behind the Snowdon, or Extend onto the Regents Park Maybe 2-5 Acres of The Park?

 

[ShonenJake13]

Also, other than a lot of ibis, what bird species remain in the Snowdon?

There are currently sacred ibis, northern bald-faced ibis, green peafowl, black kites, a red-crowned crane, mandarin ducks, white-winged ducks, a grey-headed gull, little egrets and a cattle egret in there, though I haven't seen the gull in a very long time.

I have a Feeling that the Snowdon is Not Big enough for 30 Colobus Monkey, Smaller Monkeys, Forest Antelope (Bongo?), Great Grey Parrots, Birds, Red River Hogs and Pygmy Hippo

Unless they Only place the Colobus, Birds (Grey Parrot) and The Red River Hog to the Snowdon

or they buy more Land and Extend the Length of the Snowdon to fit all the species in together

Also If they want to Bring in More Animals and Extend the Zoo, why don't the Zoo Just Purchase and get planning permission to Extend the Zoo onto the Prince Albert Road And the Primrose Hill Behind the Snowdon, or Extend onto the Regents Park Maybe 2-5 Acres of The Park?

The Regent's Park is a royal park and won't allow extensions as to do so would cut onto major pathways and areas in the zoo (frequently used sport fields, restaurants etc). The same would go for the road, a busy road used to connect Camden and the City of Westminster. So no go on the expansion idea.

As for the path near the Snowdon (currently home to owls, tawny frogmouths and a few passerines), I reckon they will do something with it following the Snowdon refurb, as it's currently in a horrific state and with more people going to that end of the zoo they'll have to do something.

And in regards to species that will go in with the colobus, I doubt the pygmy hippos will go in as their current enclosure was meant to be a step up for them. If they do put antelope in it will likely be duiker or perhaps bongo. The red river hogs I personally would love to see return to the zoo (they used to live next door to the hunting dogs, at the entrance to Into Africa). And the grey parrots shouldn't be a problem either, they have two offshow in the Bird Garden in Whipsnade so get them and some others from any zoo you can name really (they're quite common in zoos) and create a flock and hey presto. I hope they add some species e.g goliath heron, shoebill, white-crested or trumpeter hornbill, great blue turaco, maybe some tambourine dove or emerald starling or black crake. They could move the congo peafowl and/or green woodhoopoe from Gorilla Kingdom.

What I'm curious to find out is what kind of smaller monkeys they're considering putting in there. There aren't many guenon species out there, and mangabeys/baboons won't do at all in a walkthrough. So what will go in there?

 

[Crowthorne]

Had a speed visit today, only had time for a few areas. Saw the new platforms built for the Tree Kangaroo in the Clore Rainforest, but no sign of the lady herself in the main area; tried looking through to her off-show enclosure but didn't catch sight of her there either. The height of the fencing around the Hunting Dogs has been increased, possibly to prevent people sitting their children on/over the fencing; it blocks the view a little now, especially from the raised areas at the entrance/exit from the Giraffe house. No sign of the Duiker. The Muntjacs have access to nearly all of the land around Three Island Pond; the male came right up to the wall next to the lawn, but a small electric fence has been put up all around and stopped him getting too close.

 

[tetrapod]

Just a few thoughts following up on the Colobus walkthrough. Despite being to London Zoo a number of times I've never been inside the Snowdon so I can't say with any authority about space, however...

* ZSL won't mix any species that is particularly rare or delicate (Goliath heron, shoebill, Congo peafowl) or that will possibly be harassed or killed (doves).
* I can't see it being big enough for bongo or pygmy hippo. Mix would be fine however.
* Red river hogs, like all pigs, make an absolute mess of exhibits. I would think it was unlikely that ZSL would try and house them together, but it might work. The mix would be fine, as above.
* Duiker would work, but would you see a small solitary antelope in the bottom of the aviary?
* Grey parrots - I would love to see a zoo do a big flock and mix with primates. Think it would be very impressive. Interaction with other species should work well.
* Other primates would work, but it would need to be a guenon as mangabeys and baboons are too aggressive for a walk-through.
* As mentioned colobus do spend alot of time lying about. They are a bit like lemurs needing to sun themselves in order to get going. I suspect this is due to their vegetarian diets.

It will be interesting to see which way they go and what works.

 

[ShonenJake13]

Just a few thoughts following up on the Colobus walkthrough. Despite being to London Zoo a number of times I've never been inside the Snowdon so I can't say with any authority about space, however...

* ZSL won't mix any species that is particularly rare or delicate (Goliath heron, shoebill, Congo peafowl) or that will possibly be harassed or killed (doves).
* I can't see it being big enough for bongo or pygmy hippo. Mix would be fine however.
* Red river hogs, like all pigs, make an absolute mess of exhibits. I would think it was unlikely that ZSL would try and house them together, but it might work. The mix would be fine, as above.
* Duiker would work, but would you see a small solitary antelope in the bottom of the aviary?
* Grey parrots - I would love to see a zoo do a big flock and mix with primates. Think it would be very impressive. Interaction with other species should work well.
* Other primates would work, but it would need to be a guenon as mangabeys and baboons are too aggressive for a walk-through.
* As mentioned colobus do spend alot of time lying about. They are a bit like lemurs needing to sun themselves in order to get going. I suspect this is due to their vegetarian diets.

It will be interesting to see which way they go and what works.

Goliath herons can be put in mixed aviaries (eg Dierenrijk in the Netherlands have done this).

Congo peafowl can also go in mixed aviaries (they currently live with green woodhoopoe at the zoo).

Shoebills were just a suggestion; it's a species I definitely think could come to the zoo at some point.

I agree about the bongo and pygmy hippos; definitely not enough room as of right now.

If I'm honest, red river hogs would be their best bet for hoofed mammals from Central Africa. Duikers already live with the okapi so there's no need to get more, plus colobus are more or less exclusively arboreal.

There is a path round the bottom of the aviary that has been closed for a while now, it allows you to see the bottom dwellers up close. I reckon they'll open that back up when this new exhibit opens.

Again, what guenon species though? There really aren't many in captivity atm, maybe De Brazza's or L'Hoest's could work, or potentially owl-faced.

I agree about the baboons and mangabeys, way too aggressive.

In regards to birds, doves do do well in a mixed aviary but maybe not with colobus around (though in my experience colobus aren't really aggressive to birds).

The birds I suggested have mostly been proven to work well together in a mixed walkthrough aviary setting (hornbills, turacos, crakes, doves, starlings); these are the species most often found in aviaries like the Snowdon around the zoo.

Currently, my suggestions for the new exhibit would include:

- Colobus
- De Brazza's monkeys
- Red river hogs
- Yellow-backed duikers
- Goliath herons
- Emerald starlings
- Great blue turacos
- White-crested hornbills
- Tambourine doves
- Black crakes
- African pygmy geese
- African grey parrots

I'm not saying that these would all work together etc, but I think a mixed exhibit with these would be cool.

 

[Panthera1981]

Does the Snowdon redevelopment also include the other aviaries on the bank and re-opening the other main entrance/exit? The latter makes sense IMO (schools access? Members?) but I have a horrible feeling that that row of aviaries will be bulldozed.

Regarding the aviary's interior, something will need to be done to allow decent wheelchair access.

 

[gentle lemur]

I agree with tetrapod's thinking here: many of the species suggested in this thread would be disqualified for reasons like those he suggested.
I would add that there are other potential problems involved too. I presume that the final design will have to include a heated indoor area to house the colobus at night. It remains to be seen whether there will also be a heated roosting area which the birds can be induced to use: if not, only relatively hardy species, such as the ones now kept, can go into the Snowdon Aviary.
There are also potential compatibility problems: for example, I think a hungry goliath heron could consume several black crakes and/or pygmy geese. Another issue is security, the canal towpath is a public right of way and there is only is a fairly substantial fence and the aviary mesh between the birds and the public. I am sure the ZSL has further security measures in place, but it doesn't seem a good idea to put a lot of rare, valuable and delicate birds in such an exposed situation.

Alan

 

[oflory]

Does the Snowdon redevelopment also include the other aviaries on the bank and re-opening the other main entrance/exit? The latter makes sense IMO (schools access? Members?) but I have a horrible feeling that that row of aviaries will be bulldozed.

Regarding the aviary's interior, something will need to be done to allow decent wheelchair access.

In 2014, they were certainly planning to redevelop them! It would certainly make sense to tie this in with the Snowdon, so perhaps this is why it seems to have been delayed?

http://committees.westminster.gov.uk/documents/s2066/Item 11 - London Zoo Regents Park.pdf

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

@ShonenJake, the other species you mentioned are all already at ZSL or not?

 

[DDcorvus]

Currently, my suggestions for the new exhibit would include:

- Colobus
- De Brazza's monkeys
- Red river hogs
- Yellow-backed duikers
- Goliath herons
- Emerald starlings
- Great blue turacos
- White-crested hornbills
- Tambourine doves
- Black crakes
- African pygmy geese
- African grey parrots

I'm not saying that these would all work together etc, but I think a mixed exhibit with these would be cool.

Hornbills will prey on the smaller birds and on eggs and young, so are not really an option. And pigs are not an option with birds that are even slightly ground bound. Pigs will not just prey on eggs and young but as well on any bird they can get. The giant herons might be safe as an adult but their young would not be, so this combination is not an option.

 

[ShonenJake13]

@ShonenJake, the other species you mentioned are all already at ZSL or not?

The colobus, starlings and pygmy geese are at London, and the hogs and grey parrots at Whipsnade.

Hornbills will prey on the smaller birds and on eggs and young, so are not really an option. And pigs are not an option with birds that are even slightly ground bound. Pigs will not just prey on eggs and young but as well on any bird they can get. The giant herons might be safe as an adult but their young would not be, so this combination is not an option.

Good point, I'm still for the herons, but the pygmy geese I think are ok where they are in Blackburn atm.

As for hornbills, they have Von der Decken's hornbills living with other species in two aviaries, and red-billed hornbills living with scarlet ibis in another aviary. White-crested are a similar size to the Tockus variety of hornbills and have been shown to do well in mixed aviaries (Central Park Zoo and Bronx Zoo have both living with numerous rare species such as red BOPs, turacos, glossy starlings and so on) plus they're found in the same range as colobus so that's why I'd vote for them.

So here's my revised list:

- Colobus
- De Brazza's monkeys
- Red river hogs
- Yellow-backed duikers
- Goliath herons
- Emerald starlings
- Great blue turacos
- White-crested hornbills
- Tambourine doves
- African grey parrots

 

[ShonenJake13]

I should also mention that there is a small enclosed run in the bottom of the Snowdon which is used as a shelter/nesting area for the cranes that have formerly and currently lived there (Brolgas and red-crowned). So if the goliaths do breed they could go in there until the chicks are of a safe size.

 

[ShonenJake13]

And in regards to how many zoos keep the species not currently at ZSL in Europe (this according to Zootierliste):

- De Brazza's = 42 zoos
- Duikers = 3 zoos
- Goliaths = 11 zoos
- Turacos = 7 zoos
- Hornbills = 4 zoos
- Doves = 7 zoos

None of them would be much of a problem to acquire (I think the duikers would be the biggest challenge to get).

My plan of action would be create a new group of De Brazza's from various individuals from different zoos who are ready to leave their natal group, get a pair of duiker from Wuppertal (they have two pairs, one of which lives with okapi, so I'm suggesting the other pair), pair up two goliaths and two great blue turacos from different zoos, a pair of tambourine doves from say an American zoo, and one of the pairs of hornbills from Zlin-Lesna Zoo in the Czech Republic.

 

[Max Blundell]

Regarding My Last Post about the Expansion of London zoo, I have thought that the Zoo could buy some of the Land on Primrose Hill and Build a Bridge above the Road behind the Snowdon so then Visitors can walk along it and See More Animals on the Other Side.

After The New Colobus Monkey Walkthrough has been completed and Opened, what do you think The Zoo will Do with The Mappins?, I think a Good Idea would to Have A Walkthrough but Australian Animals Like Kangaroos, Koalas, Emus and Camels that they have Now in the Outside Paddock and Then people would walk to the Top or Inside of the Terraces and It would be a Polar Biome with Snow Leopards, Polar Bears, Reindeer and More

Or even Add New Animals to the Zoo that could be Housed in the Mappins Like Sun Bears or Big Cats like Mountain Lions or leopards?

Does the Zoo Still have the Warthogs? Because when i Went in April, i Only Saw One In the Enclosure, Would the Warthogs be a Good Species to go in the Snowdon?

Also What Other Antelope/ Forest Deer could be Housed In the Snowdon?

 

[Pertinax]

find out is what kind of smaller monkeys they're considering putting in there. There aren't many guenon species out there, and mangabeys/baboons won't do at all in a walkthrough. So what will go in there?

Talapoins perhaps? They are small and harmless enough. I can't see London getting De Brazzas when they already have Dianas available, but IMO both would be very risky for a walkthrough. I imagine it will be 'manned' at all times by staff but even so...

Regarding other species; I imagine the only suitable- sized Antelope for the ground area available, would be Duikers. Red River Hog will churn up the vegetation so much it will quickly become bare earth- not attractive when this is no doubt meant to be an immersive 'forest exhibit'. So I would think the Colobus, Duikers and a couple of bird species that can look after themselves- like the Grey Parrots maybe, might be just about it. These 'mixed' exhibits seem invariably to contain less, rather than more species, because of space and over-usage constraints.

 

[ShonenJake13]

Talapoins perhaps? They are small and harmless enough. I can't see London getting De Brazzas when they already have Dianas available, but IMO both would be very risky for a walkthrough. I imagine it will be 'manned' at all times by staff but even so...

Regarding other species; I imagine the only suitable- sized Antelope for the ground area available, would be Duikers. Red River Hog will churn up the vegetation so much it will quickly become bare earth- not attractive when this is no doubt meant to be an immersive 'forest exhibit'. So I would think the Colobus, Duikers and a couple of bird species that can look after themselves- like the Grey Parrots maybe, might be just about it. These 'mixed' exhibits seem invariably to contain less, rather than more species, because of space and over-usage constraints.

Good point. I hadn't thought of talapoins.

 

[DDcorvus]

And in regards to how many zoos keep the species not currently at ZSL in Europe (this according to Zootierliste):

- De Brazza's = 42 zoos
- Duikers = 3 zoos
- Goliaths = 11 zoos
- Turacos = 7 zoos
- Hornbills = 4 zoos
- Doves = 7 zoos

None of them would be much of a problem to acquire (I think the duikers would be the biggest challenge to get).

My plan of action would be create a new group of De Brazza's from various individuals from different zoos who are ready to leave their natal group, get a pair of duiker from Wuppertal (they have two pairs, one of which lives with okapi, so I'm suggesting the other pair), pair up two goliaths and two great blue turacos from different zoos, a pair of tambourine doves from say an American zoo, and one of the pairs of hornbills from Zlin-Lesna Zoo in the Czech Republic.

The blue turacos are way too sensitive for the setting of the Snowdon aviary. Babies are needed for the species to maintain the current captive population so the species will not be available for this setup.

And a much cheaper source for tambourine doves is the private sector. Why not get them from an UK breeder? And if you keep the red river hogs in there no Goliath herons will become available for the same reasons as the blue turacos.