Generally an animal doesn't care if its inside or outside, as long as its environmental conditions and behavioural needs are met. Adding an outside access for galapagos tortoises would please some visitors "oh look at that lovely outdoor space" (in the same way we have enclosures dressed with green walls and fake rocks to make things look "real") but would rarely be used by them due to UK weather, where as if that extra space was covered and temperature managed, it would be used all year around.
ZSL London Zoo ZSL London Zoo News 2024
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The above excellent paper answers much of what we needed to know...but I still do believe that a dedicated amphibian house would have been preferable to a giant tortoise house,even if only two tortoises,perhaps even just one (!) had remained in the former enclosure. Reason ?...much needed conservational breeding space versus non- breeding taxonomic hybrids.
cerperal
Well-Known Member
I feel the need to admit something. Despite god-knows-how-many visits to Whipsnade and even more visits into the capital, I've never actually been to London Zoo. Something which I'm planning to fix this Friday, mainly due to the new reptile house.
Just wondering a few things for those better acquainted with the collection and the zoo - notably, the best order to see things (I'm arriving midday which is a change from my normal opening time starts), the things to definitely not miss and the best times to see any animals. I'm hoping around 5 hours will be sufficient to absorb the entire site and conclude unnecessary opinions to then post here. Any information would be greatly appreciated
Just wondering a few things for those better acquainted with the collection and the zoo - notably, the best order to see things (I'm arriving midday which is a change from my normal opening time starts), the things to definitely not miss and the best times to see any animals. I'm hoping around 5 hours will be sufficient to absorb the entire site and conclude unnecessary opinions to then post here. Any information would be greatly appreciated
I'm not a regular but as a very recent visitor who did an afternoon visit -- I started at Gorilla Kingdom one day and the new Reptile exhibit the other, and worked my way through the west side of the zoo, then back across to the east and the Mappins and crossed down to the southern side, where I did the Africa exhibits first including the colobus walkthrough (2-4pm is recommended by the zoo) and then moved down, ending with Rainforest and Night Life. The latter was fed close to the end of the day on my visit which is one of your better shots to see some of the nocturnal species active as well as the elusive Alatora lemurs.
Bear in mind unless something changed in the last week you may have to back track from the northeast zoo -- the bridge at Land to the Lions is closed, Meet the Monkeys is a loop, and I don't recall a path around Tiny Giants. So when you do those three exhibits, you'll have to go back around Land of the Lions after.
Also don't forget the deer exhibit behind the otters, like me.
FYI, five hours should be good enough to see everything.
cerperal
Well-Known Member
I was planning to use your trip thread (which I have been thoroughly enjoying) as a basis for mine so thank you for the elaboration! Knowing when Night Life is fed was one of the main things I was after, mainly due to the rarities and my lack of luck with nocturnal exhibits normally. I usually end up backtracking to certain areas for a second look anyway so that shouldn't be a problem but it's good to know
Happy to help and hope it works out -- I didn't expect them to be fed while I was there that late, it was a lucky coincidence!
Kalaw
Well-Known Member
One must-see area that is easy to miss is the Eastern Aviaries below Gorilla Kingdom (represented by a hawk on the map) - they house some lovely species such as African Harriers and the nation's only Asian Woollyneck Storks. Personally, I would make my way here first, as it leads you directly to SLoRA, although as mentioned by @JVM , Gorilla Kingdom then SLoRA is an equally viable strategy. Between the former Reptile House and former Aquarium, behind the bathrooms and kiosk, is a small vivarium for Europe's only Congo Caecilians with a few more in semi-offshow vivariums behind, which is worth investigating, although your chances of actually seeing them is incredibly slim. Another area is the nocturnal display housing Aye-aye and Grey Mouse Lemurs (separate to 'Night Life,' the zoo's main nocturnal house, which often confuses first time visitors), which can be found at the end of the Ring-tailed Lemur walkthrough, tucked away to the right of the Lac Alaotra Gentle Lemur enclosure. JVM is right to say that the best time to see this lovely but secretive species is usually close to the end of the day.
In SLoRA, make sure to see the only Lake Oku Clawed Frogs in Europe, as well as the Sardinian Brook Salamanders, Telfair's Skink, Big-headed Turtles and Ethiopian Mountain Adders which are all major rarities. The turtles can be difficult to see but are most commonly found beneath the rocks in the centre of their enclosure. As it is new, there are a lot of staff patrolling SLoRA, and most of them are quite helpful and friendly, more than willing to help you find certain species if you are struggling.
In Blackburn Pavilion, be sure to spend some time in the two main walkthroughs looking out for rarities such as Scarlet-chested Sunbird, Splendid Sunbird, Collared Trogon and Ultramarine Grosbeak. The Scarlet-chesteds can most commonly be seen at the feeders and nests at either back corner of the exhibit, but with some luck you may be able to find them darting about elsewhere. If you are struggling to find the trogons (which is more likely lately as they have been spending more time in the offshow area), then they have a second aviary beside the entrance to the first walkthrough where they can usually be seen more clearly. Other rarities within these smaller aviaries include Purple-naped Lories (against the wall of the main walkthrough) and Javan Green Magpies, in an outdoor aviary near Land of the Lions. The magpies are just about impossible to see but are usually most active around late morning.
Monkey Valley has rather inconvenient opening hours of 10:00 to 12:00 and 14:00 to 16:30, and often times the colobus are all indoors so the walkthrough is desolate and there is little point going in. As such, if you are in Into Africa and you look across the Regent's Canal to see active colobuses and people within the walkthrough, then I would suggest visiting as it may be your sole chance for colobus activity.
Enjoy your visit!
Can't resist saying that I did forecast this before it opened!
Kalaw
Well-Known Member
Indeed it is a serious issue, and it was even worse when the enclosure initially opened due to technical problems with the doors and the colobus struggling to settle in. Indeed, with 6 visits now since it opened, I have only actually entered it once, with that being on the most recent occasion last Friday. When the colobus are active it can be spectacular, and especially seeing the large males leaping up close with no barriers is an unforgettable experience, with the ten minutes or so I spent in there being very much enjoyable. But then all ten colobus gradually began moving indoors and within a few minutes it was empty. A brilliant exhibit, but one with some deeper flaws that the zoo is clearly (although understandably) struggling to solve.
I think it probably has several problems- such as wet or windy weather will keep them inside, but even in fine weather they have only very limited/short periods of activity, like many monkeys do. They make a fine exhibit when active but most Colobus I see in zoos are all huddled together quietly resting/sleeping so it seemed rather obvious to me what the result would be in this exhibit. They can't change their behaviour...
I have tried hard to not be involved so much with debate and discussion as I have found in the past the condescending tone of some users have impacted on my mental health. I can already see the responses so there is probably no need to reply but I don’t understand the willingness (or maybe it’s glee?) in taking any opportunity to have a pot shot at London/Whipsnade/ZSL. Sure my username probably sees some users think I shouldn’t have any say on those matters but when we are all part of a site that brings together people with shared interests it boggles my mind that some are so willingly quick to criticise/point the finger/attempt to get the moral high ground when you hardly hear anything that praises the many good things that happen. Am I saying we can’t criticise? No of course not, that’s the exact opposite of what a forum should be, but I’m sorry it seems like some just can’t wait to get some sort of comment in when it’s totally unnecessary. Maybe I’m also guilty of this, but when we all love the same topic can’t we try and be a community of positivity? I know what some people will say and perhaps I need thicker skin but the seeming joy people get at any chance to have a dig at ZSL gets so tiresome. Are ZSL perfect? No, nothing ever is but come on. Give them a break once in a while. London is never going to be the ‘menagerie’ it once was and imo for the better.
Sorry this is so long and probably painfully poorly written but having tried so hard to not get involved I just had to say something.
Kalaw
Well-Known Member
There are certain instances in which members have made posts (I could give examples but won’t out of politeness) have criticised ZSL in ways that I consider to be entirely unfair. There is certainly a trend on this forum of people being negative for the sake of it, and ZSL seems to be particularly prone to it. On both this news thread and the previous years’, I have been defending ZSL, rarely criticising it and taking just about any opportunity to rant about how excellent the past few years have been for its development. Perhaps I have even been too optimistic at times, but that is simply because I have been tremendously impressed with what I have seen and want to draw attention to that, partly because I think it is good enough to deserve that, and partly to contrast with the pessimism shown by others.
I do not, however, think that this is such an instance. An exhibit that is closed for half of every day and is entirely unused for half of its opening time is objectively flawed. As both myself and Pertinax mentioned, this exhibit is also excellent at times, but it is not without issues and I don’t see a problem with drawing attention to those issues.
I love ZSL and think that their rate of development over the past few years has been wonderful, and I think that they have a bright future ahead. I also love Monkey Valley for the reasons mentioned above - it can be tremendously entertaining at times. However, it isn’t perfect and people are allowed to mention that. The pointlessly negative approach which so many have towards ZSL, and zoos in general, on this forum, is indeed pointless and depressing, but I don’t think the comment made by Pertinax was an example of that, and that his comment was truthful and harmless.
We are all entitled to our own opinions, of course, but I personally agree with Pertinax here.
I am completely neutral in my feelings toward London/Whipsnade. If anything I'm positive as they are great places and I've been going to both for over 65 (no 70) years now. If they do a good exhibit I say so. The new monkey
exhibits at Whipsnade sound very good though again there may be times of inactivity, that's the way of primates. Glee?- absolutely not, I get no pleasure seeing an exhibit not working too well, nor am I taking 'potshots' at the zoo- merely saying I did realistically forecast these problems with this particular exhibit.
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It wasn’t intended to be a personal attack on your particular comment so I apologise if that’s how it came across. I guess it was just a build up of frustration that I vented at possibly the wrong time.
I think I just wanted to draw attention to the “pointlessly negative approach which so many have towards ZSL, and zoos in general, on this forum” that Kalaw referred to. Like I mentioned I wasn’t entirely sure my post was well written but I still don’t get why some those to be overall negative for the sake of it.
Again I’m not aiming at any individual, like I said it was just that moment I decided to finally comment.
Both sites mean an awful lot to me, so I’m just pleased to see so many examples of great progress being made at both
I think I just wanted to draw attention to the “pointlessly negative approach which so many have towards ZSL, and zoos in general, on this forum” that Kalaw referred to. Like I mentioned I wasn’t entirely sure my post was well written but I still don’t get why some those to be overall negative for the sake of it.
Again I’m not aiming at any individual, like I said it was just that moment I decided to finally comment.
Both sites mean an awful lot to me, so I’m just pleased to see so many examples of great progress being made at both
Lafone
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I think it's an amazing use of the space when the monkeys are active, but Colobus are not going to be all over it all the time. I agree that it will be the same in the new monkey forest exhibit at Whipsnade. A large space the primates will be amazing in for comparatively short amounts of time.
It's the downside of exhibiting them in spaces like this so it is one of those things, to enjoy if they are out and not expect them to be.
However that sort of enjoyment doesn't fit with all zoo visitor expectations. Lets face it some visitors would watch animals getting poked with a stick if it meant they could get them into smartphone range (not all of course).
Overall, fantastic spaces for the animals to use when they feel like it. Brilliant...periodically. As a fan, I really like both but it has limitations you can't ignore visitor wise. I think Kalaw's description of it as flawed is good. Spectacle wise though, a wow.
It will be interesting to see if London keeps the Colobus in the aviary long term. I assume you can't mix anything in with them, so if it doesn't work out visitor wise perhaps they'd look at birds again.
It's the downside of exhibiting them in spaces like this so it is one of those things, to enjoy if they are out and not expect them to be.
However that sort of enjoyment doesn't fit with all zoo visitor expectations. Lets face it some visitors would watch animals getting poked with a stick if it meant they could get them into smartphone range (not all of course).
Overall, fantastic spaces for the animals to use when they feel like it. Brilliant...periodically. As a fan, I really like both but it has limitations you can't ignore visitor wise. I think Kalaw's description of it as flawed is good. Spectacle wise though, a wow.
It will be interesting to see if London keeps the Colobus in the aviary long term. I assume you can't mix anything in with them, so if it doesn't work out visitor wise perhaps they'd look at birds again.
Kalaw
Well-Known Member
The plan was originally to put turacos in there, along with perhaps some other birds, but I spoke to a keeper last week who stated that they have been switching back and forth on whether or not they will go through with this. The keepers definitely recognise the same issues as us and view introducing birds as a solution, but due to the boisterous nature of the colobus (the staff were understandably very frustrated by their destruction of all the leaves on the trees, for example) they are not sure that it is realistic or safe. After a lot of disagreement, the zoo has decided to give it a couple more years to see how the colobus settle in before deciding whether or not to introduce turacos, but currently they admit that it is most likely that they will not be introduced. Only time will tell, however.
Personally, I hope they don't return to exclusively birds (and doubt they will), because if they do we won't be getting anything bigger than a turaco regardless. The main reason for the removal of birds in the first place (or so I have been informed, but not directly by the zoo so this might not be entirely correct) was that the larger ones (pelicans, ibis, kites etc) needed to fly for prolonged periods of time, which the Snowdon Aviary did not allow for because of its design. It's an architectural wonder with the hanging triangular pillars to allow for tensegrity and the geodesic design of the netting, but it didn't really allow larger birds to fly for long without getting cornered. It became clear that the larger birds didn't really fit in, and without them, the smaller ones didn't have the same awe factor by themselves. I love smaller birds, but an aviary of this size will feel completely wasted on them, far more so than at the moment with the colobuses.
Mixing colobuses with smaller birds such as turacos would be the best middle ground, so let's hope that it happens. If not, then I would personally prefer just colobus to just birds for the reasons mentioned above, and I suspect the zoo would agree with me there, although on this forum that may be an unpopular opinion.
Lafone
Well-Known Member
Thanks I’m surprised they can mix anything so that’s interesting. Erring on the side of caution seems sensible.
I would leave the colobus and accept it myself as when it’s amazing even if rarely that’s worth it from my pov but then I’ve a longer dwell time tendency than some visitors!
Kalaw
Well-Known Member
You summarised my thoughts perfectly - it isn't perfect, but it is an acceptable use of an important structure, that with a bit of luck can add an unforgettable experience to a zoo visit.
I've been through Monkey Valley twice -- the second time the colobus were active, including one being on the catwalk mere feet away from me. Absolutely unforgettable and while I love lemur walkthroughs, squirrel monkey walkthroughs, and tamarin/marmoset/saki walkthroughs, it was very different to have a larger Old World monkey so close. Watching them jump from structure to structure was fun. One of those experiences where even though you've seen the species many times before, it felt fresh and different in a new context.
Seeing some birds or something added would be nice if there's a way to make it work.
I don't know enough about the old aviary to judge it in comparison. I feel a little weirdly lucky for some of this -- knowing less about London's last few years makes it harder to look at the current exhibits and go 'oh, but it was better before' .... except the Mappins. That one is so abundantly obvious.
Seeing some birds or something added would be nice if there's a way to make it work.
I don't know enough about the old aviary to judge it in comparison. I feel a little weirdly lucky for some of this -- knowing less about London's last few years makes it harder to look at the current exhibits and go 'oh, but it was better before' .... except the Mappins. That one is so abundantly obvious.
Baringogiraffe12
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Confirmation on the zoo's social media of three lion cubs born to Arya x Bhanu.
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