ZooChat Cup Group F: Bronx vs Leipzig
- Thread starter CGSwans
- Start date
Maybe not if that Mouse House is at the BronxOh, a good many mouse houses I should think
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Here is what Leipzig have to offer in this tie:
- Ansell's mole-rat
- Black-tailed prairie dog
- Cape hyrax
- Cape porcupine
- Capybara
- Chinese pangolin
- Dusky Egyptian spiny mouse
- Eastern quoll
- Eurasian harvest mouse
- Fat sand rat
- Giant anteater
- Greenish acuchy
- Kowari
- Linnaeus' two-toed sloth
- Mongolian gerbil
- Northern koala
- Patagonian mara
- Red-necked wallaby
- Round-eared elephant shrew
- Southern three-banded armadillo
- Sri Lankan giant squirrel
- Swinhoe's striped squirrel
- Vietnamese small flying fox
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Alright @pangolin12 , let me guess why you voted 3-0 Leipzig.... they have pangolins.
I looked through my notes and realized that the mouse house was the one exhibit for which I did not really have a recent a species list. The most recent species list I could find was by @ThylacineAlive
Mouse House:
Degu
African Pygmy Mouse
Eurasian Harvest Mouse
Green Acouchi
Rock Cavy
Harris's Antelope Squirrel
Short-Eared Elephant-Shrew
Damara Mole-Rat
Long-Tailed Chinchilla
Black-and-Rufous Elephant-Shrew
Screaming Hairy Armadillo
Northern Luzon Giant Cloud Rat
Malagasy Giant Rat
Arabian Spiny Mouse
Nile Rat
California Mouse
African Dormouse
House Mouse
Greater Egyptian Jerboa
Lesser Egyptian Jerboa
Merriam's Kangaroo-Rat
Fat-Tailed Gerbil
Pallid Gerbil
Bushy-Tailed Jird
Besides the Mouse House:
Mouse House:
Degu
African Pygmy Mouse
Eurasian Harvest Mouse
Green Acouchi
Rock Cavy
Harris's Antelope Squirrel
Short-Eared Elephant-Shrew
Damara Mole-Rat
Long-Tailed Chinchilla
Black-and-Rufous Elephant-Shrew
Screaming Hairy Armadillo
Northern Luzon Giant Cloud Rat
Malagasy Giant Rat
Arabian Spiny Mouse
Nile Rat
California Mouse
African Dormouse
House Mouse
Greater Egyptian Jerboa
Lesser Egyptian Jerboa
Merriam's Kangaroo-Rat
Fat-Tailed Gerbil
Pallid Gerbil
Bushy-Tailed Jird
Besides the Mouse House:
- Giant anteater
- North american porcupine
- Common treeshrew
- Rodrigues flying fox
- Indian flying fox
- Cape Hyrax
- Aardvark
- linnaeus‘ two toed sloth
OK, so basically, this competition is pangolin, koala and quoll vs a whole load of mice.
Nothing beats a pangolin
Both these zoos do well when it comes to miscellaneous mammals, with many mice, rats and bats on the species lists provided above. Bronx deserves a point for its famous 'Mouse House', but Leipzig has Chinese Pangolins, Eastern Quolls and Northern Koalas amidst many more offerings. 2-1 Leipzig is my vote and that seems to be the consensus so far in this match.
I am voting 2-1 in favor of Bronx. Small rodents are underrepresented in zoos and Bronx really turns it into on of their strengths. However Leipzig is great in this category, and I may be temped to switch (especially if someone offers a compelling argument).
I'd imagine that, just like with Brookfield in the NA cup, the presence of pangolins will outweigh any other arguments otherwise but here we go...
Miscellaneous Mammals at Bronx:
-Matschie's Tree-Kangaroo
-Red-Necked Wallaby (ambassador animal)
-Red Kangaroo (ambassador animal)
-Lesser Hedgehog Tenrec
-Straw-Colored Fruit Bat
-Indian Flying Fox
-Rodrigues Flying Fox
-Screaming Hairy Armadillo
-Southern Three-Banded Armadillo (ambassador animal)
-Rock Hyrax
-Domestic Rabbit (in the Children's Zoo if we're counting domestics)
-Black-and-Rufous Elephant-Shrew
-Linneaus's Two-Toed Sloth
-Hoffmann's Two-Toed Sloth
-Giant Anteater
-Damaraland Mole-Rat
-Domestic Guineapig (in the petting zoo if we're counting domestics)
-Patagonian Mara
-Rock Cavy
-Long-Tailed Chinchilla
-California Mouse
-Cactus Mouse
-North American Deer Mouse
-Red-Rumped Agouti
-Lesser Egyptian Jerboa
-Greater Egyptian Jerboa
-Brazilian Porcupine (ambassador animal)
-North American Porcupine
-Merriam's Kangaroo-Rat
-Cape Porcupine (ambassador animal)
-Arabian Spiny Mouse
-Nile Grass Rat
-Pallid Gerbil
-Eurasian Harvest Mouse
-South African Pygmy Mouse
-Western House Mouse
-Fat-Tailed Gerbil
-Northern Luzon Giant Cloud Rat
-Bushy-Tailed Jird
-Malagasy Giant Rat
-Common Degu
-Harris's Antelope Squirrel
-Prevost's Squirrel
-Black-Tailed Prairie Dog
-Yellow-Bellied Marmot (ambassador animal)
-Northern Treeshrew
-Aardvark (imported from Tanzania)
Miscellaneous Mammals I Noted at Leipzig in September 2018:
-Kowari
-Eastern Quoll
-Red-Necked Wallaby
-Queensland Koala
-Vietnamese Small Flying Fox
-Domestic Rabbit
-Chinese Pangolin
-Giant Anteater
-Ansell's Mole-Rat
-Patagonian Mara
-Greater Capybara
-Black Nile Spiny Mouse
-Fat Sand Rat
-Grizzled Giant Squirrel
-Swinhoe's Striped Squirrel
So that's 47 species at Bronx vs 15 at Leipzig... Of course I do have the slight advantage of knowing a little about the species Bronx keeps bts whereas I don't for Leipzig so the actual difference is likely slightly smaller. Even discounting ambassador species and domestics, though, that's a 25 species difference.
While Leipzig's work with Chinese Pangolins deserves every bit of praise it's received here, I feel as though I should point out that the WCS does work with every species of pangolin in-situ and will have done more to save the entire Order than Leipzig ever will have (not to undermine the wonderful work Leipzig has and is doing). My understanding is the WCS isn't supportive of the highly controversial manner in which the US pangolin population came to be (see discussion on the Brookfield Misc. Mammals North American Cup thread if you don't know) and therefore doesn't want to keep them, which honestly I can appreciated even though I do support the existence of a captive population.
Considering the overwhelming difference in the collection size and the fact that the WCS will undoubtedly be doing more to research and conserve pangolins despite not actually keeping any, I will be voting 2-1 in favor of Bronx.
~Thylo
Miscellaneous Mammals at Bronx:
-Matschie's Tree-Kangaroo
-Red-Necked Wallaby (ambassador animal)
-Red Kangaroo (ambassador animal)
-Lesser Hedgehog Tenrec
-Straw-Colored Fruit Bat
-Indian Flying Fox
-Rodrigues Flying Fox
-Screaming Hairy Armadillo
-Southern Three-Banded Armadillo (ambassador animal)
-Rock Hyrax
-Domestic Rabbit (in the Children's Zoo if we're counting domestics)
-Black-and-Rufous Elephant-Shrew
-Linneaus's Two-Toed Sloth
-Hoffmann's Two-Toed Sloth
-Giant Anteater
-Damaraland Mole-Rat
-Domestic Guineapig (in the petting zoo if we're counting domestics)
-Patagonian Mara
-Rock Cavy
-Long-Tailed Chinchilla
-California Mouse
-Cactus Mouse
-North American Deer Mouse
-Red-Rumped Agouti
-Lesser Egyptian Jerboa
-Greater Egyptian Jerboa
-Brazilian Porcupine (ambassador animal)
-North American Porcupine
-Merriam's Kangaroo-Rat
-Cape Porcupine (ambassador animal)
-Arabian Spiny Mouse
-Nile Grass Rat
-Pallid Gerbil
-Eurasian Harvest Mouse
-South African Pygmy Mouse
-Western House Mouse
-Fat-Tailed Gerbil
-Northern Luzon Giant Cloud Rat
-Bushy-Tailed Jird
-Malagasy Giant Rat
-Common Degu
-Harris's Antelope Squirrel
-Prevost's Squirrel
-Black-Tailed Prairie Dog
-Yellow-Bellied Marmot (ambassador animal)
-Northern Treeshrew
-Aardvark (imported from Tanzania)
Miscellaneous Mammals I Noted at Leipzig in September 2018:
-Kowari
-Eastern Quoll
-Red-Necked Wallaby
-Queensland Koala
-Vietnamese Small Flying Fox
-Domestic Rabbit
-Chinese Pangolin
-Giant Anteater
-Ansell's Mole-Rat
-Patagonian Mara
-Greater Capybara
-Black Nile Spiny Mouse
-Fat Sand Rat
-Grizzled Giant Squirrel
-Swinhoe's Striped Squirrel
So that's 47 species at Bronx vs 15 at Leipzig... Of course I do have the slight advantage of knowing a little about the species Bronx keeps bts whereas I don't for Leipzig so the actual difference is likely slightly smaller. Even discounting ambassador species and domestics, though, that's a 25 species difference.
While Leipzig's work with Chinese Pangolins deserves every bit of praise it's received here, I feel as though I should point out that the WCS does work with every species of pangolin in-situ and will have done more to save the entire Order than Leipzig ever will have (not to undermine the wonderful work Leipzig has and is doing). My understanding is the WCS isn't supportive of the highly controversial manner in which the US pangolin population came to be (see discussion on the Brookfield Misc. Mammals North American Cup thread if you don't know) and therefore doesn't want to keep them, which honestly I can appreciated even though I do support the existence of a captive population.
Considering the overwhelming difference in the collection size and the fact that the WCS will undoubtedly be doing more to research and conserve pangolins despite not actually keeping any, I will be voting 2-1 in favor of Bronx.
~Thylo
OK, so basically, this competition is pangolin, koala and quoll vs a whole load of mice.
I find this to be a rather sad common to make.. As great as pangolins, Koalas, and quolls are, to downplay the importance of rodent diversity-- especially in the zoo world where most institutions almost completely ignore their existence-- is rather ignorant sounding imo.
~Thylo
It wasn't meant in a derogatory way to Bronx, in fact I too appreciate the diversity of mice there believe it or not. I'm not a fan of koalas, I find them boring and inactive, quolls are exciting if you can see them, and pangolins, once you've seen them they just look like massive pine cones trudging around their enclosure..
However, I honestly do enjoy seeing Mouse houses, like at Vienna, etc..
So it wasn't in a derogatory way, (although tbf it may have sounded slightly so in hindsight) I like seeing new species in zoos instead of meerkats.
This post has convinced me to switch my initial vote from 2-1 Leipzig to 2-1 Bronx
Same here. It's impressive to see the tide of the match turning after one influential post.This post has convinced me to switch my initial vote from 2-1 Leipzig to 2-1 Bronx
I don't there is any justification for voting 3-0 for Leipzig.
It wasn't meant in a derogatory way to Bronx, in fact I too appreciate the diversity of mice there believe it or not. I'm not a fan of koalas, I find them boring and inactive, quolls are exciting if you can see them, and pangolins, once you've seen them they just look like massive pine cones trudging around their enclosure..
However, I honestly do enjoy seeing Mouse houses, like at Vienna, etc..
So it wasn't in a derogatory way, (although tbf it may have sounded slightly so in hindsight) I like seeing new species in zoos instead of meerkats.
Fair enough then. I wasn't so much worried you were being derogatory towards Bronx but rather Rodentia as a whole; glad to hear I was wrong. I do enjoy the three species you mentioned very much as well.
~Thylo
I'm also voting 2-1 for Bronx Zoo. Leipzig Zoo is most certainly a strong contender in this category (it would probably be better than average even without the pangolins), and I'm not trying to downplay that, but it's still got the typical zoo tendency of relegating miscellaneous mammals to the sidelines. The pangolins are just a (granted, extremely nice) bonus in the elephant house, the Swinhoe's striped squirrels are just sidekicks to the tigers etc. Very few of them are stars on their own.
Bronx, on the other hand, has actually built a house for small mammals only, and many of the species in there are rarities. That's something that really impresses me in this day and age where the big crowd-pleasing mammals rule.
To be honest, I'm probably a little bit biased because I didn't see the pangolins when I visited Leipzig. There were no scheduled feedings that day, and they refused to show themselves in their darkened exhibit. I can't say for sure that I wouldn't have voted 2-1 on Leipzig's behalf if I had actually seen a pangolin in real life.
Bronx, on the other hand, has actually built a house for small mammals only, and many of the species in there are rarities. That's something that really impresses me in this day and age where the big crowd-pleasing mammals rule.
To be honest, I'm probably a little bit biased because I didn't see the pangolins when I visited Leipzig. There were no scheduled feedings that day, and they refused to show themselves in their darkened exhibit. I can't say for sure that I wouldn't have voted 2-1 on Leipzig's behalf if I had actually seen a pangolin in real life.
I am a great fan of Rodentia, I think it is one of the most varied orders, and they are vastly underrepresented in zoos as a whole, just like Chiroptera and Soricomorpha...
I would like to add in a few photos of exhibits...
Leipzig exhibits:
Mole rat exhibit with soft substrate and burrowing area to practise natural activities
Large spiny mouse exhibit (the mouse is the small dot in the background), lit up with red lights which do not affect the rat and makes the oblivious of the visitors, reducing stress levels.
Two photos of the immense Fat sand rat exhibit. They fit together (the top one to the left of the bottom one). The fact that the photographer (thank you @gulogulogulo ) couldn't fit the exhibit into one photo is suggestive...
Comparatively large koala exhibit, immense considering these animals basically sleep the whole day
Large kowari exhibit in Gondwanaland. Darkened in order to maintain low stress levels with the animals and allowing natural behaviours to come through.
Massive Sri-Lankan giant squirrel exhibit with lots of climbing opportunities, etc.
And one of the best exhibits for flying foxes I have ever seen, second only to Vienna's magnificent rainforest house.
Those are the ones I chose, and I haven't even mentioned the quolls and the pangolins, just to demonstrate that Leipzig are far from simply those three 'flagship' species.
I will do Bronx soon.
