ZooChat Cup Group F: Bronx vs Leipzig

[amur leopard]

Here is Bronx (from the few photos I could actually find of the Mouse House)



A meh on the small side enclosure for armadillo


A large, generally good exhibit for Damaraland mole rats (although there is no soft substrate and they cannot burrow down!!!)



Possibly one of the worst pika exhibits I have seen - these are extremely energetic little rodents ; they need space!

A sub-standard and small exhibit for red rumped agouti, a species that can grow up to 70 cm in length!!!



A decent exhibit for South African pygmy mice...



And a very good exhibit for flying foxes in Jungle World


Make what you will of this.

In my book, Leipzig's enclosures are better, and I think Bronx have not quite adjusted to modern standards of exhibitry in their Mouse house - perhaps they should cut out a few species in order to give others more space...

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Possibly one of the worst pika exhibits I have seen - these are extremely energetic little rodents ; they need space!

1) I'd like to know how many pika exhibits you've seen
2) They aren't rodents.
3) They tend to hide in hay or long grass and remain still, actually.
4) This exhibit doesn't exist anymore.

 

[amur leopard]

1) I'd like to know how many pika exhibits you've seen
2) They aren't rodents.
3) They tend to hide in hay or long grass and remain still, actually.
4) This exhibit doesn't exist anymore.

1) Quite a few (in photos)
2) Ok mistake sry (pedanticism)
3) I beg to differ they are very energetic, they gather hay throughout the summer, staying nearish to their burrows (maximum 20 metres) and run around a lot. In fact, this video can confirm:

Especially important are bits just past the 1:00 mark, where the commentator says: 'He's spent his entire summer hard at work' and at 1:20 where he says: 'He's been saving food for the months ahead' and running scenes for the whole length of the video. So no, pikas are energetic and collect food constantly over a large area. They do not deserve that kind of enclosure
4) Fine I didn't know.

Point remains, the agouti enclosure is horrific and so, to some extent is the armadillo one.

 

[ShonenJake13]

1) Quite a few (in photos)

Really? I’d like to know more about which you’ve seen! Given the only two photos in the gallery are the one you used for Bronx’s animal and a tiny hamster cage.....
Ah, perhaps you saw the pikas at Chester in the late eighties.....? Or you did a German zoo tour in the early 2000s?

I’ll agree with you - it’s not a great enclosure. But to say it’s the worst you’ve ever seen.....I’d look at the GuZoo one in the gallery before making that statement.

 

[ShonenJake13]

Should also mention, unlike yourself @TeaLovingDave has had the privilege of seeing pikas first hand....as have I! So can confirm his point about them choosing to hide and stay still in amongst hay and long grass.

I’m sure any regular Minnesota Zoo visitors would also confirm this?

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Quite a few (in photos)

Given how seldom one sees pika, I doubt this somewhat certainly it's better than the other pika exhibits which are in the gallery, and the only other recent exhibit I know of remains unphotographed on this site, so not sure which ones you have seen!

So no, pikas are energetic and collect food constantly over a large area.

Wild behaviour to the end of sating needs is not necessarily present if those needs are fully catered for; elsewise we'd need acres upon acres for even a small cat exhibit.

And in the case of pika, the harvesting behaviour is absent.

 

[Vision]

Should also mention, unlike yourself @TeaLovingDave has had the privilege of seeing pikas first hand....as have I! So can confirm his point about them choosing to hide and stay still in amongst hay and long grass.

I’m sure any regular Minnesota Zoo visitors would also confirm this?

Of course this also likely has something to do with the enclosure design... If animals aren't given space to be active, they won't be active. I definitely felt like Bronx's enclosure for them (and indeed most of the other enclosures in the mouse house) was to the smaller side for their inhabitants, with perhaps the worst of all being a very empty and small armadillo enclosure.

I voted 2-1 for Leipzig based on the (in my opinion) much more consistently better enclosures and husbandry, despite their smaller collection.

 

[amur leopard]

Should also mention, unlike yourself @TeaLovingDave has had the privilege of seeing pikas first hand....as have I! So can confirm his point about them choosing to hide and stay still in amongst hay and long grass.

I’m sure any regular Minnesota Zoo visitors would also confirm this?

Firstly, I have also seen pikas first hand IN THE WILD, so don't assume things please. (in Canada)
Secondly, that is unnatural behaviour. Just because in the enclosures that they are given in zoos (tiny and unsatisfactory) means they stay in the same place, doesn't mean that is all right nor that it is wild behaviour. Therefore zoos should followe their mission statements and recreate their natural habitats instead of lazily going with the norm. If food is scattered around the enclosures for the pikas to find it, or if foo is provided in the enclosure itself, that will encourage natural behaviour and I would bet that you would see lots of activity.

Wild behaviour to the end of sating needs is not necessarily present if those needs are fully catered for; elsewise we'd need acres upon acres for even a small cat exhibit.

And in the case of pika, the harvesting behaviour is absent.

Look at my response to @ShonenJake13 's post.
The pikas will behave naturally if food is presented natural, or in an enriching fashion. Just because something doesn't behave naturally in existing enclosures, it doesn't mean that zoos can just sit back and say: 'Hey ho that's how it is...'

 

[TeaLovingDave]

zoos should followe their mission statements and recreate their natural habitats instead of lazily going with the norm. If food is scattered around the enclosures for the pikas to find it, or if foo is provided in the enclosure itself, that will encourage natural behaviour and I would bet that you would see lots of activity.

Again, I've seen an enclosure which does precisely this, still to the effect I noted the only way to have truly natural behaviour would be to fence off an acre or two of hillside and leave them to their own devices with no supplementary feeding.

But we're getting off the point - if this is the worst pika exhibit you've seen, the only other images in the gallery are of animals in much smaller habitats in China and the Chester staff offices, and pika have been held precious few other occasions..... what were all these exhibits you saw photos of?

 

[amur leopard]

Of course this also likely has something to do with the enclosure design... If animals aren't given space to be active, they won't be active. I definitely felt like Bronx's enclosure for them (and indeed most of the other enclosures in the mouse house) was to the smaller side for their inhabitants, with perhaps the worst of all being a very empty and small armadillo enclosure.

I voted 2-1 for Leipzig based on the (in my opinion) much more consistently better enclosures and husbandry, despite their smaller collection.

Now I (personally) agree with this. From what I have seen from both zoos after having sifted through their photo galleries at length, I came to this conclusion.

 

[ShonenJake13]

Firstly, I have also seen pikas first hand IN THE WILD, so don't assume things please. (in Canada)
Secondly, that is unnatural behaviour. Just because in the enclosures that they are given in zoos (tiny and unsatisfactory) means they stay in the same place, doesn't mean that is all right nor that it is wild behaviour. Therefore zoos should followe their mission statements and recreate their natural habitats instead of lazily going with the norm. If food is scattered around the enclosures for the pikas to find it, or if foo is provided in the enclosure itself, that will encourage natural behaviour and I would bet that you would see lots of activity.



Look at my response to @ShonenJake13 's post.
The pikas will behave naturally if food is presented natural, or in an enriching fashion. Just because something doesn't behave naturally in existing enclosures, it doesn't mean that zoos can just sit back and say: 'Hey ho that's how it is...'

The place myself and TLD saw pikas at received their information of husbandry from the very zoo that kept them and bred them for so many years with great success.....they scatter their food around, provide them with plenty of shelter and room, and as a result are experiencing great success themselves.

On a lighter note, I’ve always wanted to see pikas kept in a prairie dog style enclosure....that would be something to see!

 

[amur leopard]

Again, I've seen an enclosure which does precisely this, still to the effect I noted the only way to have truly natural behaviour would be to fence off an acre or two of hillside and leave them to their own devices with no supplementary feeding.

But we're getting off the point - if this is the worst pika exhibit you've seen, the only other images in the gallery are of animals in much smaller habitats in China and the Chester staff offices, and pika have been held precious few other occasions..... what were all these exhibits you saw photos of?

Minnesota and Berlin Tierpark

The place myself and TLD saw pikas at received their information of husbandry from the very zoo that kept them and bred them for so many years with great success.....they scatter their food around, provide them with plenty of shelter and room, and as a result are experiencing great success themselves.

On a lighter note, I’ve always wanted to see pikas kept in a prairie dog style enclosure....that would be something to see!

Ooooooh I'm already getting ideas!!!

A burrow system, complete with underground viewing and infra-red lighting so as not to disturb the pikas in hibernation! This should be a new Fantasy zoo challenge!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Minnesota and Berlin Tierpark

I'd be very interested to hear you describe the latter

On another note..... I reckon we need a breakdown from yourself, @pangolin12 and @HOMIN96 about why Leipzig requires a clean sweep and Bronx merits no points whatsoever. See if you can change some minds!

 

[amur leopard]

Of course this also likely has something to do with the enclosure design... If animals aren't given space to be active, they won't be active.

I have seen this with carnivores especially. In Pafos zoo in Cyprus, they have I think 2.1 Siberian tigers in quite a small enclosure with no real enrichment. At the centre of the zoo, there is a massive area full of large pools and rivers where a number of birds are kept. If they were to renovate this to make a moated enclosure for these tigers, they would be much happier. Anyway, the tigers have a tendency to simply sleep the whole day in a corner (and the group covers almost the whole enclosure because it is so small).
However, in other zoos with large tiger enclosures, like that in Thoiry safari park, the animals can be seen performing largely natural behaviours, with the exclusion of hunting, of course. But I saw one of the tigers marking out territory, play-fighting... etc.
There is no line between in captivity and in the wild. There are hardly any purely wild animals now... Even the African savannas are fenced off now! And zoo enclosures are getting more adventurous ; Bristol recently made an enclosure for wolves and European brown bears which is immense (I seem to recall a figure like 30,000 m2) and, though it is in a zoo, it still featured in BBC Wildlife magazine! The line is blurred, and zoos should try and venture more into this blurred area in order to gain popularity with visitors. And if an exhibit gets close enough to the wild, it will allow its inhabitants to act as they would in the wild. I bet they could let a few Fallow deer into the bear-wolf exhibit at Bristol and the predators wouldn't find them immediately, forget hunting them down it is so big. So yes, it is possible for animals to exhibit natural bvehaviours if given an exhibit that is truly right.
Of course, there is the argument that this equilibrium cannot be reached for animals like polar bears (although @FunkyGibbon 's fantastic Helsinki zoo idea for them could well be feasible ), so alternatives can be reached, and for an inner city zoo, Vienna does a very good job of this.

In conclusion, it is possible to have natural behaviours if a zoo builds natural enclosures.

 

[amur leopard]

I'd be very interested to hear you describe the latter

On another note..... I reckon we need a breakdown from yourself, @pangolin12 and @HOMIN96 about why Leipzig requires a clean sweep and Bronx merits no points whatsoever.

OK well I can tell you straight off why @pangolin12 thinks so...

However, for me, as the photos show, there is a vast difference between the quality of the Bronx exhibits and the Leipzig exhibits. Leipzig is consistently fantastic and spacious for its miscellaneous mammals, whereas Bronx's mouse house is tbh outdated and has exhibits that are too small for its inhabitants. Granted, its species list is good, but then again Leipzig's has rarities like quolls and pangolins. Also, if Zurich wins 3-0 against Leipzig in herps when Leipzig has more species and good enclosures, I think Leipzig deserves a 3-0 in this tie.

And I am not playing down rodents in any way, I swear I actually like rodents.

 

[ShonenJake13]

OK well I can tell you straight off why @pangolin12 thinks so...

However, for me, as the photos show, there is a vast difference between the quality of the Bronx exhibits and the Leipzig exhibits. Leipzig is consistently fantastic and spacious for its miscellaneous mammals, whereas Bronx's mouse house is tbh outdated and has exhibits that are too small for its inhabitants. Granted, its species list is good, but then again Leipzig's has rarities like quolls and pangolins. Also, if Zurich wins 3-0 against Leipzig in herps when Leipzig has more species and good enclosures, I think Leipzig deserves a 3-0 in this tie.

And I am not playing down rodents in any way, I swear I actually like rodents.

Asked to provide a description of an enclosure to prove it has indeed been seen

Ignores request and therefore adds doubt to the fact they’ve seen said enclosure.

Jokes aside, genuinely curious, as the enclosure is offshow and very hard to access from an onshow area so would love to know how this got shared with you!

 

[amur leopard]

Oh oops I actually didn't see that part of the post I was too intent on providing a explanation for my vote.

I got it from Zootierliste actually, where there are photos of what is (presumably) the Tierpark pika enclosure. However, even if it doesn't happen to be the Tierpark enclosure, the rockwork is still pretty good and it seems large enough given the estimated zoom the photographer has used to get the pika into the frame, so it still technically proves the point that there are better pika enclosures out there, although I technically haven't seen a complete photo of it, I can piece it together...

As an added bonus, the photographers' names are blatantly German, and I don't see them going to a remote Chinese zoo to get a pic of a pika…

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I got it from Zootierliste actually, where there are photos of what is (presumably) the Tierpark pika enclosure. However, even if it doesn't happen to be the Tierpark enclosure, the rockwork is still pretty good and it seems large enough given the estimated zoom the photographer has used to get the pika into the frame, so it still technically proves the point that there are better pika enclosures out there, although I technically haven't seen a complete photo of it, I can piece it together...

Presuming you mean this photo:

I believe that's a wild animal. Of the other four photographs on that entry, one is from Bronx, one is Minnesota, one is from the current Tierpark enclosure, and one is from a 1980s German exhibit... and I reckon none really give a picture of what the respective exhibits look like.

 

[ShonenJake13]

Oh oops I actually didn't see that part of the post I was too intent on providing a explanation for my vote.

I got it from Zootierliste actually, where there are photos of what is (presumably) the Tierpark pika enclosure. However, even if it doesn't happen to be the Tierpark enclosure, the rockwork is still pretty good and it seems large enough given the estimated zoom the photographer has used to get the pika into the frame, so it still technically proves the point that there are better pika enclosures out there, although I technically haven't seen a complete photo of it, I can piece it together...

As an added bonus, the photographers' names are blatantly German, and I don't see them going to a remote Chinese zoo to get a pic of a pika…

Aha!
So the photos on ZTL - only a handful of them are actually taken at Berlin. The one of the pika on dirt is at Minnesota and the rockwork one is actually taken in the wild I think?
The Berlin enclosure is definitely better than Bronx’s, but I would still say that, for only one or two single sex animals (which is the number Bronx had I believe) that said enclosure is not bad at all compared to others! Had it been for a breeding colony then my opinion would probably have been the same as yours...

 

[Vision]

Aha!
So the photos on ZTL - only a handful of them are actually taken at Berlin. The one of the pika on dirt is at Minnesota and the rockwork one is actually taken in the wild I think?
The Berlin enclosure is definitely better than Bronx’s, but I would still say that, for only one or two single sex animals (which is the number Bronx had I believe) that said enclosure is not bad at all compared to others! Had it been for a breeding colony then my opinion would probably have been the same as yours...

In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king...

The best enclosure for a species doesn't necessarily constitute a good or even adequate enclosure, unfortunately! I feel like Bronx's pika enclosure was just about fine, but definitely the armadillo, elephant shrew and agouti enclosures seemed way too small.