Best UK Clouded Leopard enclosure

[pipaluk]

I agree with you, actually - but would say that this thread and the Cheetah one, are titled 'best *** enclosure', and not 'best *** exhibit'... My point was that there could be, and indeed often is, a difference.

Thanks for your understanding, I was not in any way insulting your enclosures as I said earlier ! It's just that the title in every contest has been enclosure not enclosures, which I had always assumed to be the main on show exhibit before cheetahs were discussed! In the clouded leopard contest that was clearly the case, but suddenly most people's criteria seem to have changed - no fault of yours obviously!

 

[Andrew Swales]

Thanks for your understanding, I was not in any way insulting your enclosures as I said earlier ! It's just that the title in every contest has been enclosure not enclosures, which I had always assumed to be the main on show exhibit before cheetahs were discussed! In the clouded leopard contest that was clearly the case, but suddenly most people's criteria seem to have changed - no fault of yours obviously!

The whole concept of these comparisons is a bit bizarre. Personally I've visited all of those collections listed above save one, and have never once seen a Clouded Leopard, so as exhibits I'm not really sure where that leaves them. I have actually only ever seen one individual of this spp and that was at RSCC, and I wouldn't have have voted for that - if you called it an 'exhibit' OR an 'enclosure'..

 

[britishzoofan]

the title in every contest has been enclosure not enclosures, which I had always assumed to be the main on show exhibit before cheetahs were discussed

I would suggest with the Black Rhinos at Chester it was enclosures not just enclosure that was mentioned. In terms of how I would advise people to judge it in the polls, if they're interlinking enclosures like Cheetahs at Hamerton then all count in these threads. It is still important to consider whether the animals are moved round these exhibits and the space per animal. Of course if some of these enclosures are off show then members may mark them down for this.

 

[pipaluk]

I would suggest with the Black Rhinos at Chester it was enclosures not just enclosure that was mentioned. In terms of how I would advise people to judge it in the polls, if they're interlinking enclosures like Cheetahs at Hamerton then all count in these threads. It is still important to consider whether the animals are moved round these exhibits and the space per animal. Of course if some of these enclosures are off show then members may mark them down for this.

Fair enough then, but zero votes for Howletts is clearly wrong in this category (unless people have a grudge against the owner for obvious reasons!)
The rhinos at Chester and Whipsnade for that matter are all in one area so easier to class as a single exhibit

 

[britishzoofan]

The whole concept of these comparisons is a bit bizarre. Personally I've visited all of those collections listed above save one, and have never once seen a Clouded Leopard, so as exhibits I'm not really sure where that leaves them. I have actually only ever seen one individual of this spp and that was at RSCC, and I wouldn't have have voted for that - if you called it an 'exhibit' OR an 'enclosure'..

I would suggest the concept is quite simple and how you interpret the best enclosure is up to your interpretation. You can decide how much emphasis to place on the space given to the animal, enrichment, etc and also visitors viewing opportunities and aesthetics, etc. In the end it is a question of what you think the overall best enclosure is for the species taking into account all the different factors and weighting them based on what you deem to be important.

 

[pipaluk]

8 out of 14 currently voting Hamerton for cheetah voted Cotswold for clouded leopard, the goalposts have suddenly been changed sorry!

 

[britishzoofan]

Fair enough then, but zero votes for Howletts is clearly wrong in this category (unless people have a grudge against the owner for obvious reasons!)
The rhinos at Chester and Whipsnade for that matter are all in one area so easier to class as a single exhibit

I'm guessing part of the reason they failed to get many votes is the difficulty in viewing the enclosure for visitors and isn't as aesthetically pleasing as Cotswold's. Also, I'm guessing the Cotswold exhibit provides more space per individual animal. However, yes I do agree that Howletts has been extremely unlucky here to pick up no votes.

 

[pipaluk]

I'm guessing part of the reason they failed to get many votes is the difficulty in viewing the enclosure for visitors and isn't as aesthetically pleasing as Cotswold's. Also, I'm guessing the Cotswold exhibit provides more space per individual animal. However, yes I do agree that Howletts has been extremely unlucky here to pick up no votes.

But it was also Hamerton breeding record that won votes, Howletts walks that for clouded leopard and probably overall enclosure space, just saying!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Fair enough then, but zero votes for Howletts is clearly wrong in this category (unless people have a grudge against the owner for obvious reasons!)
The rhinos at Chester and Whipsnade for that matter are all in one area so easier to class as a single exhibit

In my case, my choice came down to a similar tricky decision as the one I faced for cheetahs and Chester/Hamerton, with the choices being Howletts/Cotswold, and for very similar reasons; in point of fact, I did initially vote for Howletts.... as did a few other people, I think.

However, the factor that tipped my decision the other direction for this thread - as opposed to the direction I took for the cheetah discussion - is that the Cotswold exhibit for clouded leopard is attractive *and* has seen a fair bit of breeding success, whilst the Chester exhibit for cheetah has seen only patchy success with breeding despite being (in my opinion) the best looking exhibit for the species in the UK.

For what it is worth, I rather suspect that many of the people who voted for Cotswold in this discussion would have picked Howletts as a strong second choice, if we ran this thread again without Cotswold in contention. This is the problem with this particular means of voting, of course; it only shows the collections that people pick as their first choices. If we had a thread where people were able to assign multiple points to the entire field in whatever ratio they saw fit, rather that voting all-or-nothing, it is quite possible that collections which have reaped few to no points here would fare significantly better.

 

[pipaluk]

The whole concept of these comparisons is a bit bizarre. Personally I've visited all of those collections listed above save one, and have never once seen a Clouded Leopard, so as exhibits I'm not really sure where that leaves them. I have actually only ever seen one individual of this spp and that was at RSCC, and I wouldn't have have voted for that - if you called it an 'exhibit' OR an 'enclosure'..

I've seen clouded leopard at all listed and rscc, but never at Linton in half a dozen visits plus when they had them for a few years

 

[britishzoofan]

This is the problem with this particular means of voting, of course; it only shows the collections that people pick as their first choices. If we had a thread where people were able to assign multiple points to the entire field in whatever ratio they saw fit, rather that voting all-or-nothing, it is quite possible that collections which have reaped few to no points here would fare significantly better.

Yes, you are right that probably would be a better overall method. The only problem with it in my opinion is there would be lower overall participation than with a poll. The best of both worlds would be a poll system where you could select your top three or something like that.

 

[pipaluk]

In my case, my choice came down to a similar tricky decision as the one I faced for cheetahs and Chester/Hamerton, with the choices being Howletts/Cotswold, and for very similar reasons; in point of fact, I did initially vote for Howletts.... as did a few other people, I think.

However, the factor that tipped my decision the other direction for this thread - as opposed to the direction I took for the cheetah discussion - is that the Cotswold exhibit for clouded leopard is attractive *and* has seen a fair bit of breeding success, whilst the Chester exhibit for cheetah has seen only patchy success with breeding despite being (in my opinion) the best looking exhibit for the species in the UK.

For what it is worth, I rather suspect that many of the people who voted for Cotswold in this discussion would have picked Howletts as a strong second choice, if we ran this thread again without Cotswold in contention. This is the problem with this particular means of voting, of course; it only shows the collections that people pick as their first choices. If we had a thread where people were able to assign multiple points to the entire field in whatever ratio they saw fit, rather that voting all-or-nothing, it is quite possible that collections which have reaped few to no points here would fare significantly better.

I voted Cotswold too, so I am obviously not questioning why people voted for the clouded leopard enclosure., I just don't understand why so many people's criteria seemed to have changed for cheetah

 

[britishzoofan]

But it was also Hamerton breeding record that won votes, Howletts walks that for clouded leopard and probably overall enclosure space, just saying!

I do agree with all the points you are making. One thing I would say with breeding is that a good breeding record doesn't necessarily indicate a good enclosure.

 

[Andrew Swales]

if they're interlinking enclosures like Cheetahs at Hamerton then all count in these threads.

Our enclosures are NOT interlinking, most are set away from others to allow animals to be isolated from each other - that is the point! Animals are crated for movement between them. If we could find another site a mile or two away to ensure complete auditory isolation as well as physical and visual isolation, that would be even better.

 

[Andrew Swales]

....a good breeding record doesn't necessarily indicate a good enclosure.

Rubbish...!
If by 'good breeding record' you mean, normal, parent/mother/grouop reared young into multiple generations, then by default the enclosures MUST be good.

 

[britishzoofan]

Rubbish...!
If by 'good breeding record' you mean, normal, parent/mother/grouop reared young into multiple generations, then by default the enclosures MUST be good.

I would agree with you that a lot of the time a good breeding probably does indicate a good enclosure. However, for example at Twycross they have a good breeding record with their apes yet I don't think many people would argue their enclosures are good. Therefore, in my opinion a good breeding record does not necessarily indicate a good enclosure.

 

[Buldeo]

That Cotswald exhibit is really nice. It certainly puts many - if not all - ofthe ones I've come across to shame.

 

[lintworm]

Rubbish...!
If by 'good breeding record' you mean, normal, parent/mother/grouop reared young into multiple generations, then by default the enclosures MUST be good.

Let's see what TP Berlin's Sun Bears have to say about that....

 

[TNT]

Let's see what TP Berlin's Sun Bears have to say about that....

Don't forget Bristol Zoo and their Black Rhino... producing 5 offspring, and successfully rearing 3, in what would be considered a dreadful exhibit by current standards...

Bristol Zoo 1963: Black Rhinoceros *Credit*

 

[Fallax]

I guess when you're living in a pit you have nothing better to do.

Don't forget Bristol Zoo and their Black Rhino... producing 5 offspring, and successfully rearing 3, in what would be considered a dreadful exhibit by current standards...

Bristol Zoo 1963: Black Rhinoceros *Credit*

How big was this enclosure and does it still exist today?