Damian Aspinall: You all know my views on zoos prove me wrong

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

@Damian Aspinall Two questions, one directly related to the subject at hand and the other a bit off-topic but of interest to me (sorry for it being off-topic but I feel that is an opportune moment to ask you).

What is your opinion regarding the current effort to conserve the Sumatran rhino in-situ in Indonesia ?

What happened to the African golden cats that were kept in the past at the parks ?

 

[Damian Aspinall]

@Damian Aspinall What about cases where the main threats to the continued survival of a species in the wild are those that arise from the presence of invasive species or diseases ?

How might those kinds of challenges be tackled strategically in-situ ?

What alternatives are there in your opinion to ex-situ management within zoos in these sorts of cases?

I have not yet come across a rewilding project of our own where invasive species is an issue so can't comment. However i am sure that ads to the many challenges already faced

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I have not yet come across a rewilding project of our own where invasive species is an issue so can't comment. However i am sure that ads to the many challenges already faced

Yes, that is what I was going to suggest, that the reintroductions and in-situ work of the Aspinall parks have focused mainly on large mammals and species not threatened by the issue of invasive species (though the Scottish wildcat and hybridization with domestic cats would sort of qualify).

This doesn't disqualify what you are saying of course with regards to ex-situ, reintroductions, in-situ work and your critique of zoos but it is another thing to consider. I'm also glad to hear that you acknowledge this as being a challenge too.

 

[Damian Aspinall]

Yes, that is what I was going to suggest, that the reintroductions and in-situ work of the Aspinall parks have focused mainly on large mammals and species not threatened by the issue of invasive species (though the Scottish wildcat and hybridization with domestic cats would sort of qualify).

This doesn't disqualify what you are saying of course with regards to ex-situ, reintroductions, in-situ work and your critique of zoos but it is another thing to consider. I'm also glad to hear that you acknowledge this as being a challenge too.

Absolutely acknowledge a challenge... re wilding is the hardest thing we do without question which i am sure is the reason why zoos do not do more of it but for me it is the most important aspect of any animals in captivity.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Absolutely acknowledge a challenge... re wilding is the hardest thing we do without question which i am sure is the reason why zoos do not do more of it but for me it is the most important aspect of any animals in captivity.

I agree, ex-situ cannot be effective without there also being long-term commitment to in-situ conservation.

Conservation must be holistic and these two management strategies are not mutually exclusive which is something that needs to be recognized much more widely within the zoo world.

 

[Damian Aspinall]

@Damian Aspinall Two questions, one directly related to the subject at hand and the other a bit off-topic but of interest to me (sorry for it being off-topic but I feel that is an opportune moment to ask you).

What is your opinion regarding the current effort to conserve the Sumatran rhino in-situ in Indonesia ?

What happened to the African golden cats that were kept in the past at the parks ?

Not sure you are aware but many years ago during my father lifetime we were the first place to try to breed Sumatran Rhino in captivity (i actually did not agree that this was the righting to do)however we tried for years and failed and so did every zoo i believe so we sent out Rhino back to Sumatra..I am not up to date what is the current situation.
Re African Golden Cats we tried to breed them for years but sadly they had been put on contraception by a german zoo which gave them to us and it made them infertile. They died of old age ..

 

[Dassie rat]

Cincinnati Zoo bred Sumatran rhinos (A History of the Zoo's Sumatran Rhino Breeding Program | Cincinnati Zoo Blog)

 

[Damian Aspinall]

Cincinnati Zoo bred Sumatran rhinos (A History of the Zoo's Sumatran Rhino Breeding Program | Cincinnati Zoo Blog)

I didn't know that but again like us they had little luck and sent the animals back to Sumatra for a breeding program ... i always felt this concept was flawed from the start as i could not understand why take rhino from the wild fly them to the other side of the world and deposit them in zoos when this should of been done in situ. It was particularly mad in this case as they never had enough rhino in captivity to have enough genetic diversity so even if we had bred them and others had bred in numbers it would of still failed.... I learnt a lot from this as it all happened and was even in Sumatra during this time with the Rhino..

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Not sure you are aware but many years ago during my father lifetime we were the first place to try to breed Sumatran Rhino in captivity (i actually did not agree that this was the righting to do)however we tried for years and failed and so did every zoo i believe so we sent out Rhino back to Sumatra..I am not up to date what is the current situation.

Yes, I am aware of this history that Port Lympne had with Torgamba and Meranti and how it was ultimately unsuccessful despite your fathers best efforts (and they were quite impressive efforts in my opinion). I read a bit about it on this forum and in a fairly recent Mongabay article.

With my question specifically regarding the Sumatran rhino I meant in the sense of what your opinions are of the current plan to keep the remaining individuals in Indonesia within an ex-situ captive breeding centre located in the habitat of the species ?

I ask, because from what you have mentioned on this thread so far it would seem that this latest plan is an example of what you believe should be done with large mammals ex-situ rather than keeping them in zoos.

Re African Golden Cats we tried to breed them for years but sadly they had been put on contraception by a german zoo which gave them to us and it made them infertile. They died of old age ..

I see, that is quite sad to hear as they are a beautiful species.

Out of curiosity, which of the Aspinall parks were these cats kept at and in what area of the zoo ?

Are the enclosures where these were once kept still in use ?

 

[Zorro]

How are our trials short term ? We haver been releasing gorillas for over 20 years primates for 10 years Rhino for 20 years etc

Again you appear to miss my point and YES I know about the releases over the years so I will say this one more time for you,Ok animals have been returned for 20 years BUT longer term is is unlikely to survive for the next 50 years due to at least 2 things, 1, ever expanding human population in 3rd world counties due to habitat destruction, hunting and poaching. 2, a lot of governments in these counties are corrupt and have little to no interest in wildlife unless there a $$$$ attached to them, its probable that they may be ok while you have some input and can keep track of how things are running but at the end of the day none of us are around forever, what happens after that?. Tropical forests are going under the dozer all the time in Africa,Asia and South America, I have heard the figure quoted that up to 70% of the worlds wildlife have been wiped out in the last 50 years look where I am going with this bro!, dont tell me they are going to be safe in the long term because I really dont see it happening.

 

[Zorro]

I didn't know that but again like us they had little luck and sent the animals back to Sumatra for a breeding program ... i always felt this concept was flawed from the start as i could not understand why take rhino from the wild fly them to the other side of the world and deposit them in zoos when this should of been done in situ. It was particularly mad in this case as they never had enough rhino in captivity to have enough genetic diversity so even if we had bred them and others had bred in numbers it would of still failed.... I learnt a lot from this as it all happened and was even in Sumatra during this time with the Rhino..

This is part of the problem, You dont know all the facts and yes a number of Sumatran rhino calfs were bred in an American zoo and returned to their native land it was ground breaking work,I find it more then amazing you would not know about this breeding in the zoo world this is not new news, I am starting to question if you are who you claim to be?. My understanding of why SR never bred at PL was the first female was old and had an injured leg from poachers. I taken off exhibit into the Rhino barn and spoke to the keepers there at that time I heard the story of the PL rhinos!

 

[Ned]

First of all apologies to my fellow Zoochaters for prolonging the thread. I had decided to withdraw but picked up on this post

Thank you for your comment and it may be nice to know who i am in discussion with as we are in quite a lot of dialogue ?
Well of course Zoos have terrible terrible issues with disease as well on so many species and of course areas in situ that may have a similar issue have to be considered very carefully. One example i can give you was when we were introducing gibbons back to the wild a lot of gibbon in zoos have hep b so we were given the argument rightly that you cannot introduce these animals back to the wild. However we then spent 3 year studying gibbons on the wild and organised a way to see if wild gibbons had in fact hep b. We found out that half of Moloch Gibbons actually carry hep b in the wild so that meant we could rewild the gibbons that carried this disease.
There are many things to consider when re wilding which we always take very seriously.

Several times you have condemned zoos for having deceased animals, today you give an example - hep b in gibbons and the work that the Aspinall Foundation has done around that.

Here’s a bit from the internet about that work

Researching Hepatitis B in Javan Gibbons

And here’s a quote from it

‘In the vet department we have known for years that nearly all the Javan gibbons in our collections were positive for Hepatitis B.’

There’s then a brief summary of the work that was done to test the wild population and then the result...

‘Public Health England soon gave us the amazing news that they had isolated Hepatitis B virus from the faeces of the wild Javan gibbons. Not only that, but all the gibbons they had tested (UK captive and Javan wild) had the same strain of Hepatitis B that was different to other Hepatitis B viruses- ‘Javan gibbon Hepatitis B virus’.’

The zoo gibbons and the wild gibbons both carry the exact same virus, a virus that they are the natural host species for. Well, blow me down!

I was initially interested to hear your points but you fail to back up anything you say and have done little to convince me so I'm done.

 

[Damian Aspinall]

Again you appear to miss my point and YES I know about the releases over the years so I will say this one more time for you,Ok animals have been returned for 20 years BUT longer term is is unlikely to survive for the next 50 years due to at least 2 things, 1, ever expanding human population in 3rd world counties due to habitat destruction, hunting and poaching. 2, a lot of governments in these counties are corrupt and have little to no interest in wildlife unless there a $$$$ attached to them, its probable that they may be ok while you have some input and can keep track of how things are running but at the end of the day none of us are around forever, what happens after that?. Tropical forests are going under the dozer all the time in Africa,Asia and South America, I have heard the figure quoted that up to 70% of the worlds wildlife have been wiped out in the last 50 years look where I am going with this bro!, dont tell me they are going to be safe in the long term because I really dont see it happening.

Looking at life with the glass half empty of course you could be right as the world has gone completely mad. however we are determined to continue to protect the areas we can and to do everything to rewild and protect as the concept of zoos is so severely flawed. Thank you for your comment

 

[Damian Aspinall]

First of all apologies to my fellow Zoochaters for prolonging the thread. I had decided to withdraw but picked up on this post



Several times you have condemned zoos for having deceased animals, today you give an example - hep b in gibbons and the work that the Aspinall Foundation has done around that.

Here’s a bit from the internet about that work

Researching Hepatitis B in Javan Gibbons

And here’s a quote from it

‘In the vet department we have known for years that nearly all the Javan gibbons in our collections were positive for Hepatitis B.’

There’s then a brief summary of the work that was done to test the wild population and then the result...

‘Public Health England soon gave us the amazing news that they had isolated Hepatitis B virus from the faeces of the wild Javan gibbons. Not only that, but all the gibbons they had tested (UK captive and Javan wild) had the same strain of Hepatitis B that was different to other Hepatitis B viruses- ‘Javan gibbon Hepatitis B virus’.’

The zoo gibbons and the wild gibbons both carry the exact same virus, a virus that they are the natural host species for. Well, blow me down!

I was initially interested to hear your points but you fail to back up anything you say and have done little to convince me so I'm done.

I think the above proves my point exactly. Thank you for your comment

 

[Damian Aspinall]

This is part of the problem, You dont know all the facts and yes a number of Sumatran rhino calfs were bred in an American zoo and returned to their native land it was ground breaking work,I find it more then amazing you would not know about this breeding in the zoo world this is not new news, I am starting to question if you are who you claim to be?. My understanding of why SR never bred at PL was the first female was old and had an injured leg from poachers. I taken off exhibit into the Rhino barn and spoke to the keepers there at that time I heard the story of the PL rhinos!

I obviously cannot keep up today with every species and have never said i know all the facts what a silly suggestion. Re SM it wasn't ground breaking work it was a project that should never of started and failed miserably that is a fact i do know. Thank you for your comment.

 

[Damian Aspinall]

Yes, I am aware of this history that Port Lympne had with Torgamba and Meranti and how it was ultimately unsuccessful despite your fathers best efforts (and they were quite impressive efforts in my opinion). I read a bit about it on this forum and in a fairly recent Mongabay article.

With my question specifically regarding the Sumatran rhino I meant in the sense of what your opinions are of the current plan to keep the remaining individuals in Indonesia within an ex-situ captive breeding centre located in the habitat of the species ?

I ask, because from what you have mentioned on this thread so far it would seem that this latest plan is an example of what you believe should be done with large mammals ex-situ rather than keeping them in zoos.



I see, that is quite sad to hear as they are a beautiful species.

Out of curiosity, which of the Aspinall parks were these cats kept at and in what area of the zoo ?

Are the enclosures where these were once kept still in use ?

The idea as we phase out of species like this we get rid of these old enclosures or when possible make much bigger for the remains animals.

 

[Zorro]

Looking at life with the glass half empty of course you could be right as the world has gone completely mad. however we are determined to continue to protect the areas we can and to do everything to rewild and protect as the concept of zoos is so severely flawed. Thank you for your comment

Unless the mindset and lack of $$$ changes in these 3rd world counties little will change wildlife will always be in danger, believe what you will, I do hope all goes well for your projects but perhaps with wild places running out around the world it would be a matter of time before they fall pray to the very reason they are declining now and in the past

 

[Damian Aspinall]

Unless the mindset and lack of $$$ changes in these 3rd world counties little will change wildlife will always be in danger, believe what you will, I do hope all goes well for your projects but perhaps with wild places running out around the world it would be a matter of time before they fall pray to the very reason they are declining now and in the past

I can only judge on our own experiences and we are always told these things and always told its impossible but we have found with hard work and determination you can protect and rewild.

 

[Zorro]

Looking at life with the glass half empty of course you could be right as the world has gone completely mad. however we are determined to continue to protect the areas we can and to do everything to rewild and protect as the concept of zoos is so severely flawed. Thank you for your comment

The concept of zoos has saved lots of species as has been pointed out to you by some stop being so one eyed that you are in the right

 

[Zorro]

I can only judge on our own experiences and we are always told these things and always told its impossible but we have found with hard work and determination you can protect and rewild.

Yes one can rewild from zoo populations so what happens when/if zoos are closed down what does one repopulate from then?