Yes, I hope the gorillas continue breeding here, and it's pretty likely to be happening soon, once the youngest baby of one of the females is already independent enough for his mom to be pregnant again.
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Zoo Conservation in Latin America
- Thread starter Onychorhynchus coronatus
- Start date
Ah yes, when you mentioned this fact in another thread, I thought conservation would be included in these scientifical purposes... This makes the GDL gorillas case even harder to solve, right?
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Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Yes, you are probably right about this, as I said I really don't know very much at all about gorilla social dynamics.
However, it is worth mentioning that these females from Mexico are both quite a bit older than the females in the Brazilian breeding group at BH. Chencha who was originally a wild-caught animal would be about 35 years now while her daughter Faustina is about 27.
I dont know if that age difference in comparison with the other females would hypothetically cause further conflict or difficulties in integration into the group ?
In terms of the papers that I got from the Aspinall foundation I am still reading through them (currently reading about golden bamboo lemur reintroduction) and haven't really got into the gorilla literature yet but can pass these on to you if you are interested ?
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Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
I think one thing that I would say is that Brazilian zoos international standing and the interest in them that is generated internationally from what I've seen is mostly centred on the native species of Brazil that they keep that cannot be seen outside of the country or South America in zoos.
So species like the Southern or Northern muriqui, the buffy tufted marmoset, the pampas cat, golden lancehead viper, pampas deer, marsh deer and other species that similarly are not established in zoos in the USA or Europe tend to be the factors that make Brazilian zoos shine.
When it comes to giraffes, elephants, gorillas, lions, tigers, chimps, orangutangs or species like this there tends to be far lesser interest as these animals are held by zoos all over the world and very widely in North America, Europe and Australia etc.
What I mostly meant was the reputation the zoo had in the view of the international institutions. BH passed through a hard time when both gorillas Idi and Kifta died, and got some critics for this; so the success of the reproduction after that, made the reputation of the brazilian institutions somewhat increase. In this case, not actually for being a pioneer nor something, but for getting closer to the purposes of the international model of modern zoo, once achieved the reproduction of a species that, although relatively common in zoos nowadays, needs modern scientifical efforts to do so.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Oh right, yes, I think you are right in that sense that there tends to be more criticism or disregard for the role that Latin American zoos could play in International conservation efforts with species like elephant, gorillas, orangutang etc.
For example, Damian Aspinall himself in this forum kept referring to "substandard zoos around the world" and I was wondering if this generalization included Latin American zoos.
Personally, I tend to think that Latin American zoos could only really play a very unimportant secondary role in the ex-situ and captive breeding of these large African and Asian species / megafauna in comparison to European and American zoos that have greater resources at their disposal.
In this sense I think that where a big difference can be made is for Brazilian / Latin American zoos to focus and pioneer the ex-situ conservation of native / endemic species which are seldom if ever kept by zoos abroad / outside of this region.
Worth mentioning that Chapultepec zoo also had a hard time and received a lot of criticism after the death of Bantu, their silverback gorilla. This happened even though his death was while under anesthesia which is as I understand it quite a common tragedy for male gorillas even in zoos in Europe and North America (the famous London zoo gorilla "Guy" also died this way).
Yes, I also think we would gain more giving most of the attention to the native species than looking for a way to prepare all of our institutions to start breeding exotic megafauna, as you said.
Although our zoos still need several structural changes, I can think about some places around the world that have way worse institutions than most of the ones around here. I just mentioned that some breeding programs that require a lot of effort, when happen in a relatively underrated region such as L. America, even being not actually rare, shows to the international institutions and professionals that increasings in the zoo's methods in general are happening in the region.
I can imagine how Chapultepec suffered criticism for this case of Bantu... It's definitely a pity they didn't achieve the objectives of that transference. Let's see what follows in this case of the Mexican gorillas from now on.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
I agree. I personally think that many of the zoos in South Asia, East Asia and South East Asia frequently keep animals in far far worse conditions than even the worst zoos over here.
However, there are more than a couple of zoos in this region of the world which are just not up to scratch.
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I know this is really a hypothetical situation, but the fact those two females in Mexico have been alone without others makes little difference to any potential integration with others.Normally the 'females already in residence' (that is the two mothers at BH) would be dominant over any newcomers, but the two Mexican ones are both older which sort of evens things out rather. But I guess its not going to happen anyway.
I'd be interested in anything you got from the AF that relates to future plans for their gorillas(or any of their other animals) that still live at the parks in the UK. They have published papers on the past reintroductions I know, but that's not my interest, I am more interested in any future developments. I did refer to that and any plans for the collections as a whole on the Damian Aspinall thread, which so far has been very short on detail, but he hasn't been active on the forum for several days now.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
I see, that is interesting @Pertinax !
I assumed that in this hypothetical scenario it would be the more established younger females that would be behaviourally dominant over the newcomers and that the older females may struggle to adapt socially and be integrated into the group but I think you are probably right and things could actually work.
Regarding Damian's future plans, honestly I can't say that I have any idea what these are. The papers that have been shared with me are all relating to past reintroduction work with gorillas and other primates so give no indication of the future direction the parks may take with their great apes.
1. Normally yes the established females with their young at BH would be the dominant force. But an older mother/daughter 'team' would make things roughly equal, although initially as newcomers they would be at a disadvantage. If it happened at least to start with the male would effectively have two little 'subgroups'(or matrilines) in his group. The only way of knowing the outcome would be by putting it to the test though..
2 ....which is what I thought.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
1. Normally yes the established females with their young at BH would be the dominant force. But an older mother/daughter 'team' would make things roughly equal, although initially as newcomers they would be at a disadvantage. If it happened at least to start with the male would effectively have two little 'subgroups'(or matrilines) in his group. The only way of knowing the outcome would be by putting it to the test though..
2 ....which is what I thought.
That is quite interesting to consider.
Putting it to the test though would be very risky and costly for both of these Mexican and Brazilian zoos though. As I've mentioned in another comment in this thread I don't think that there is such a strong working relationship between the institutions of the two countries for this to be a likely deal.
Yes, once I get around to reading the gorilla papers there may be some indications of future actions but I honestly don't know what their plans are. I would tend to assume from his comments on the thread that Damian is serious about going ahead with gorilla reintroductions though.
If the laws are counterproductive to ex situ conservation breeding, there is something seriously amiss with national perceptions about wildlife conservation and what it takes to conserve nature and biodiversity. Ex situ centers for education, conservation breeding and public awareness are indispensable in this.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Yes I agree with you kifaru.
However I must say that even if Faustina and Chencha are genetically valuable for ex-situ programes with the lowland gorilla the bigger priority in my opinion in terms of conservation and zoos should be in conserving native Mexican / Brazilian species.
To be honest, I do feel that programes with gorillas and other African / Asian megafauna are distractions for zoos from that important and central task.
I'd love to see gorillas coming back to Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo (as you might already know, Belo Horizonte wasn't the only Brazilian city to have gorillas at its zoo), since the zoos and aquariums in these cities are the ones that I have visited the most. I want to visit both the zoo and the aquarium in São Paulo next year, since my last visit to both was in 2019.
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Well, I have never heard about gorillas in Rio. In São Paulo I know about Virgulino and Cleópatra, but their old exhibit there is extremely small for gorillas, and is already very well occupied by the muriquis (wich I think that fit perfetly for the enclosure).
I'm thinking it would be hard to see them in Rio too, mostly because of their new population plan, wich doesn't include gorillas, (almost) for sure.
I've heard a few times from Belo horizonte's crew that the most probable to happen with the male gorillas born here, when achieve adulthood, is being sent to another exhibit in the own zoo, to start more gorilla families in the institution. I'm imagining new gorilla exhibits at BH might be already in the plans for the following years, once Sawidi and Jahari, the oldest kids, are already 6 yrs old.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I'd personally like to see gorillas or any other great apes coming to either Rio de Janeiro or São Paulo zoos in the future as I believe these zoos should focus more heavily on breeding native species of primate.
I know São Paulo zoo are unlikely to phase out orangutang or chimpanzees and this is just my personal view but I would love to see their wonderful woolly monkeys occupying the current chimpanzee enclosure and their brilliant blond capuchins occupying the current orangutang enclosure in the future.
However, I do think that considering that the gorilla group is already established and breeding at Belo Horizonte this would have to be the most suitable zoo for future gorillas to be sent to in Brazil.
That said the ape species I really would like to see at Belo Horizonte zoo though would be lesser apes and siamangs in the form of the two individuals kept at Goiânia being moved there.
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Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Good point, I totally agree David, the enclosure does serve well for the muriquis that currently occupy it.
I would really prefer that they wouldn't be moved from this in the future in preference for gorillas to move in.
Yes, I totally agree. Imagine those chimp and orang exhibits with more vegetation and native species inside it? Would be amazing, indeed. I would like that, if this happened, would be nice to transfer the muriquis, who are larger, to one of the ape exhibits, and the blond capuchins to the present muriqui enclosure. I'm mentioning this only in the case of the two ape exhibits are vacant, once the present exhibit the muriquis occupie is already very suitable, as we were saying...
About the apes in BH, the two chimps don't tend to reproduce anymore (male is 30 and the female is 40), and I haven't heard anything from the staff about bringing more of them to the institution. Their exhibit is pretty big, and would fit very well for species like the siamangs in the future, (or the siamangs could be also transfered to the old capuchin monkey island, if renovated of course) For now, the two individuals of chimpanzee are having a nice and peaceful retirement, after having many offspring in their lives.
I also wouldn't tend to be in favor of bringing gorillas to SP again, not even if their former exhibit was empty. Although it's lush and beautifully enriched, it's extremely small for such massive animals as gorillas.
If the "sanctuary" stuff works (I hope it doesn't), the zoo won't keep orangutans anymore...
Anyway, for not keeping a reprouctive group of them, I don't think they are gonna hold this species for longer than what "Sansão" lives.