Do you have a source for this?
Dublin Zoo Dublin Zoo news thread
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Do you have a source for this?
The Hedgehog
Well-Known Member
@Yassa I think the idea or relocating some of the Elephant herd is totally barbaric. However if Dublin felt the need to jeopardise the bonds one of the best Asian Elephant herds in Europe, I would say that moving to Chester is the best of the worst ideas. At least Chester Zoo have a brilliant Asian Elephant enclosure and a proven Bull. In addition Chester also have calves the same age as those at Dublin so they could form lifelong friendships. In my opinion Dublin Zoo should retain their Asian Elephant herd as a family unit,as the saying goes if it isn’t broken don’t fix it. This saying is the most relevant in the case of the fanatic Elephant herd at Dublin Zoo. @Yassa Dublin Zoo probably won’t listen to you or I as we are just Zoo enthusiasts and not deemed experts. It’s beggars belief that Dublin are even thinking along these lines most Zoo’s long to grow such a brilliant Matriarchal herd of Asian Elephants and Dublin just want to smash thief’s to pieces. I hope Dublin Zoo read our thoughts and changes their minds but only time will tell.
Kind regards @The Hedgehog
The Hedgehog
Well-Known Member
@Pertinax my source to back up the relocation of half of Dublin Zoo’s Asian Elephant herd was page 8 of this magazine. @Pertinax please click on this link and scroll to page 8. @Pertinax I hope this post finds you well.
https://www.dublinzoo.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Dublin-Zoo-Annual-Report-2019_sml.pdf
Kind regards @The Hedgehog
Page 8 only talks about moving elephant bulls as far as I can see. Which words make you think they are moving any other elephants?
@Hedgehog: Moving part of the Dublin herd to a zoo where they had to share the enclosure with another elephant family is a horrible idea because female elephants prefer the company of their relatives over unrelated elephants. And not only that, they fight with unrelated elephants. The calves from Dublin would not form lifelong bonds with the Chester calves. They would probably play with each other as long as they are young, but would start fighting as they reach puberty (while the adult females fight right from the beginning). That happened for example in Rotterdam, Zürich, Hannover and many more zoos! If they move part of the Dublin group (which will probably happen for capacity reasons at some Point, and it will probably be Yasmin with her kids and grandson), they need to go to a zoo that keeps no other female elephants.
taun
Well-Known Member
Is Dublin herd all related? I thought the older girls were not related. So they could spilt along a family line to create new breeding herd.
The Hedgehog
Well-Known Member
@Yassa why are you arguing that moving part of the herd is a bad idea when I have already condemned the idea. If you read my posts again you will see that in no way are from am in agreement with Dublin Zoo. @Yassa we are both singing from the same hiym sheet so why are you arguing with me. I clearly stated that moving some Elephants to Chester Zoo is the best of the worst ideas.
@Yassa can you please read my posts again and be extra vidgelant of my wording.
Kind regards @The Hedgehog
I agree with Yassa, it makes absolutely no sense to send any elephants to Chester, let alone an established sub-herd from Dublin. Completely putting aside issues like Yassa already mentioned, best I can tell, their exhibits self imposed max capacity is 2.6 adult animals, plus calves, and considering their current social structure is 2.4, and the only likely transfers out over the next 10 years will be the bulls (with Aung Bo being replaced by a new breeding bull and Anjan going to a bachelor facility), that leaves no room for a new group of 4-5 animals.
To be totally realistic, and also going off of past history, it is likely Chester will inbreed Indali with Aung Bo at some point within the next 4 years (unless they get a new bull in that time). Factoring that, no more deaths (fingers crossed), and their standard breeding schedule, it is very likely Chester will have a herd of 8 animals in 4-6 years time. A totally cohesive, matriarchal herd. Without the need to bring in new animals and flare up social tensions.
Also re: Dublin, of course a herd split will eventually be needed (with 7 cows total, and all current or potential breeders, its inevitable), I have a sneaking suspicion the animals will be coming to the US, more specifically Cincinnati, for their new Elephant Reserve exhibit.
Also @taun, all of Dublins animals are related. Their current group is as follows:
Full Sisters Bernadine and Yasmin
Bernadine's daughters Asha, Samiya, and Avani
Asha's daughter Zinda
Yasmins daughter Anak and son Kabir
Anaks son Sanjay
To be totally realistic, and also going off of past history, it is likely Chester will inbreed Indali with Aung Bo at some point within the next 4 years (unless they get a new bull in that time). Factoring that, no more deaths (fingers crossed), and their standard breeding schedule, it is very likely Chester will have a herd of 8 animals in 4-6 years time. A totally cohesive, matriarchal herd. Without the need to bring in new animals and flare up social tensions.
Also re: Dublin, of course a herd split will eventually be needed (with 7 cows total, and all current or potential breeders, its inevitable), I have a sneaking suspicion the animals will be coming to the US, more specifically Cincinnati, for their new Elephant Reserve exhibit.
Also @taun, all of Dublins animals are related. Their current group is as follows:
Full Sisters Bernadine and Yasmin
Bernadine's daughters Asha, Samiya, and Avani
Asha's daughter Zinda
Yasmins daughter Anak and son Kabir
Anaks son Sanjay
The Hedgehog
Well-Known Member
@Hyak_II Whipsnade Zoo built a new Elephant house a few years ago. This new house was built with the intention of bringing in more Elephant Cowes. Could the Asian Elephants moved from Dublin Zoo move to Whipsnade and join Ming-Jung and the Elephant cowes. I believe the new Elephant house can house 10 Elephants and Whipsnade currently only have 6 resident Elephants including their bull Ming-Jung. This means that Whipsnade have the capacity to house an additional 5 Females so any additional Elephant cowes that arrive from Dublin could easily be accompanied for. This leads on to my point of can't the segregated Elephant Cowes from Dublin Zoo move to Whipsnade? Unlike Chester's Elephants the Whipsnade herd are not all blood related. In actual fact only Donna (Geetha) and Elizabeth (Beth) are related as half-sisters from Whipsnade's previous Bull Emmett (Tundi). Due to this the Dublin Elephants could just slide into the Whipsnade herd with no negative effects.
@Hedgehog: I am argueing with you because you are promoting ideas that are harmful and potentially even dangerous for the elephants involved. Moving part of the Dublin herd to Chester is not "the best of the worst ideas". Its rather "the worst of the worst" and would cause constant tension and social problems. The "best of the worst" would be moving some Dublin elephants to a zoo that has no other female elephants!
I think you have misinterpreted this. It says 'to find interested parties for homes for other Dublin-zoo bred elephants'. Nothing about creating subgroups or sending any females away yet. The terms 'split' and 'half'(of the herd) that you mentioned are not here either. You should study the wording more closely before making an announcement like this and starting a discussion over something likely to be untrue.
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That`s another stupid idea. Even if the Whipsnade elephants are not all related, introducing a new family group would still cause social problems, fights and tension. Whipsnade has enough elephants. Wait a few years, more calves will be born and the herd will grow naturally.
With continued and expanding EEP Asiatic elephant population it has increasingly become evident that herds along matriarchal lines will become the norm as they do in the wild. Part and parcel of this is to break up herds that do not correspond to great grandma, grandmother, mother, daughter, granddaughter. Over time, the latter may necessitate splitting herds further as they outgrow their living space (it would be unrealistic to have ever expanding herds given that zoo space is a dead cert limitation in itself).
BTW: The newest EEP/EAZA policy also favours zoos to have a matriarchal herd, a separate breeding bull and a separate bachelor proviso (the latter is not possible in all zoos holding breeding groups).
It will be interesting to see what the future holds for Dublin's expanding elephant herd. It is clear that the growing number of bulls will require more intervention into the herd. Speculation how this might go forward is difficult, at this time. However, it seems reasonable to expect that within the next 3-5 years another bachelor herd needs to be set up within Ireland / UK at least.
I would personally favour some of the bigger zoos to take the lead here and for some safari parks around to be able to have several enclosures given over to replicate more natural elephant herd dynamics vis a vis bachelor herds and breeding bulls. Who knows and can foretell the design of the elephant breeding and holding complexes of the future. I just do hope it will not be one where we only see only elephants in this zoo or that!
BTW: The newest EEP/EAZA policy also favours zoos to have a matriarchal herd, a separate breeding bull and a separate bachelor proviso (the latter is not possible in all zoos holding breeding groups).
It will be interesting to see what the future holds for Dublin's expanding elephant herd. It is clear that the growing number of bulls will require more intervention into the herd. Speculation how this might go forward is difficult, at this time. However, it seems reasonable to expect that within the next 3-5 years another bachelor herd needs to be set up within Ireland / UK at least.
I would personally favour some of the bigger zoos to take the lead here and for some safari parks around to be able to have several enclosures given over to replicate more natural elephant herd dynamics vis a vis bachelor herds and breeding bulls. Who knows and can foretell the design of the elephant breeding and holding complexes of the future. I just do hope it will not be one where we only see only elephants in this zoo or that!
Please address this @The Hedgehog - if that is your only source then it does not say what you have claimed it does and you have made some pretty strong comments about the zoo based on it. If you have another source then let us know.
Most likely referring to Dublin’s young bulls.
The Hedgehog
Well-Known Member
@Maguari I think I must have misunderstood what Dublin Zoo said. I’m sure an article in this vertal magazine stated that Dublin Zoo have been in contact with an international Zoo regarding the future splitting of thier Asian Elephant herd. If I have misunderstood what was written I apologise.I really did not intend to cause any offence to any of my fellow Zoochatter’s or indeed anyone involved with or connected to Dublin Zoo.
Hedgehog- I don't think it offends anyone, just leads to confusion and a discussion about something that probably isn't going to happen.
If you got it just from the Page 8 of the report as you quoted, then there is nothing there to say they intend to split their group at present.
Dublin zoo set up a public appeal to 'save the animals' last week and within 48 hours had pledges for two million plus euros. They were also (with fota) awarded a government grant for 1.1 million. They are still fundraising so the final total should be much higher and they are due to reopen next week. The other 20ish zoos and aquariums will share half a million of a government grant.
Zoo operation manager and “The Zoo” star Gerry Creighton will leave Dublin Zoo next year to become an elephant care consultant for zoos around the world.
Call of the wild lures Gerry Creighton as he leaves Dublin Zoo after 36 years
Call of the wild lures Gerry Creighton as he leaves Dublin Zoo after 36 years
After nearly a year, the white rhino calf has finally been given a name - Dakari, meaning happiness or joy.
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