The thread is here. Very interesting to read. There seems to have been some confirmation along the way that this was genuinely Damian Aspinall, I'm sure the thread would have been removed otherwise.
The thread is here. Very interesting to read. There seems to have been some confirmation along the way that this was genuinely Damian Aspinall, I'm sure the thread would have been removed otherwise.
Yes, it was him.
As I mentioned might happen above, this is already hinted at toward the end of the Guardian article....
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
As I mentioned might happen above, this is already hinted at toward the end of the Guardian article....
They can only flag it as a positive example if it is an unequivocal success and that is far from a certain outcome even with all of the preparation they detail in the article.
The onus will be on Damian and team to prove that this rewilding in Kenya has worked.
Honestly I don't envy their position.
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Well their rewilding of gorillas hasn't been very successful yet they still claim it is a success and the public probably eat it up so I doubt there will be much difference here honestly.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Don't know about the gorilla rewilding thing and the details of what happened are murky but Damian seemed to suggest that he thought that it had been a success.
Yes I think you are right about the public perception but I was also thinking about the zoo world too.
taun
Well-Known Member
Or just twist the stats to make it look like a success? Which appears he may have done with gorilla reintroductions?
I find it hard to believe 97% success rate unless he used orhpaned animals to boost the numbers.
And there lies the problem with animal rights people/groups they would rather twist the facts than actually look at the truth of the situation.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
It could be I don't know and I am skeptical too but seeing as I was apparently the only one who bothered to request and read his and king's paper perhaps more people on the forum should give it a read to actually get both sides of the story.
@OC, I did read the 2013 paper and yet I do feel that the gorilla (as with the now captive elephant to wild in Kenya program) Djala family release should never have proceeded the way it has / did. For those interested to read it (as this CUP-Oryx paper is available for free reading ...).
Assessing reintroduction success in long-lived primates through population viability analysis: western lowland gorillas Gorilla gorilla gorilla in Central Africa | Oryx | Cambridge Core
Releasing an entire and inexperienced group of long term captive established great ape gorilla family into the wild is not in my expert view a very sound release project to begin with. Just in that entire numbers game the captive to wild project has snowed under and should have been under very serious outside scrutiny for the fallible nature of its project design and in for informed and valid feedback and criticism from the conservation community.
I am not against releasing captive-bred gorilla back to the wild, if and when these are young and relatively adaptable and weaned of their mothers they can be assimilated - I believe - with wild orphans and rehabilitated to a state where they can be reintroduced fully back to the wild. Overall, I do believe the gorilla projects with releases of orphaned wild gorillas back to the wild has proven its worth.
Assessing reintroduction success in long-lived primates through population viability analysis: western lowland gorillas Gorilla gorilla gorilla in Central Africa | Oryx | Cambridge Core
Releasing an entire and inexperienced group of long term captive established great ape gorilla family into the wild is not in my expert view a very sound release project to begin with. Just in that entire numbers game the captive to wild project has snowed under and should have been under very serious outside scrutiny for the fallible nature of its project design and in for informed and valid feedback and criticism from the conservation community.
I am not against releasing captive-bred gorilla back to the wild, if and when these are young and relatively adaptable and weaned of their mothers they can be assimilated - I believe - with wild orphans and rehabilitated to a state where they can be reintroduced fully back to the wild. Overall, I do believe the gorilla projects with releases of orphaned wild gorillas back to the wild has proven its worth.
My biggest issue with all these reintroductions is they lack planning. Like I think we all understand that most individuals in any reintroduction will not survive long, as the goal is not really the individuals survival as much as the populations. Yet its inherent that zoos and conservation organizations try to increase the proportion that do survive, especially with larger mammals. Howletts seems to be doing reintroductions based on availability and not actually selecting animals well suited for release. They are not assessing which individuals are best for release or laying the groundwork in a successful way.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
I understand where you are coming from and share your reservations and skepticism about this and other reintroductions made.
I also feel that the sweeping generalisation Aspinall makes about all zoos are absurd (especially in regards to smaller taxa) and argued as much to him during the thread.
I'm just trying to strike a balance in the debate and to occupy the middle ground in this issue.
I agree partially. They have not followed through on a sound selection process in the case of the gorilla family from Howletts, but in the case of most of the black rhino (save for one) as well the langurs sent back to Java I have more confidence in their individual selection process. I am not sure how much the animal collection management or zoo keeping staff continue to have a role in this. And this really does also includes animal welfare concerns and husbandry management issues.
I believe a few others did send emails requesting the paper he kept insisting proved his claims, and which he gave as the stock response to any and all questions about his claims (rather than giving a straight answer to simple questions such as "what are the four species you keep citing as the only ones which aren't dead-ends in captivity" which he could have covered in seconds).
They were all ghosted as far as I know.
If you were sent the paper in question yourself it would be interesting if you could attach it to a post here, so that those who were interested can read it.
While we know that this Howletts elephant repatriation plan has been in the pipeline some time, its interesting that this news release about it comes so soon after the recent 'banning elephants in UK zoos' hooha in the press. Not drawing any specific conclusions from that, more just an observation...
I am not sure that the paper I quoted is the very same one DA was referring to in his communications with Zoochatters on this forum. What I do know is that there are several science papers relating to esp. the Gabon project. Some of these are publicly available. Alas, others remain beyond subscription paywalls that I assume most forumsters not attached to a - publicly funded - educational facility can never become party/privy to.
NOTA BENE: Yes, sorry to say this, but it remains a major peeve to me that while I pay my taxes for the benefit of education and science for some, I and many others remain excluded from these sources of information. I am a firm supporter of open access all around both for the benefit of public education as for the advancement of science and research and discoveries yet to be made / done.
I would welcome to receive said paper or papers which have been referred here (and if / when they might be different to the one I posted).
Wholeheartedly agreed. In my experience many researchers are happy to forward and share copies of their paywalled work if approached in private, which ameliorates the situation somewhat, but things are still far from ideal in this regard.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Oh right I wasn't aware of that as I assumed no one had bothered.
Yes I found the dodging of questions a bit too much too and the unwillingness to concede that there may be decent zoos / a middle ground too.
Basically I contacted Amos Courage and King about the paper ( the same one that Kifaru has posted the link to today) was promptly sent it and the paper on the lemur and community based Conservation too.
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Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Yep Pay walls are absurd and I absolutely share your frustrations.
Have you tried Sci-Hub?
That site is usually quite reliable for reading papers for free and includes a download option.