North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

John Marchwick said:
I didn’t know Phoenix Zoo was phasing out Asian Elephants. You know realistically speaking there is still one facility that could maybe hold some of these bachelors and that’s the Los Angeles Zoo potentially. If I’m not mistaken the Los Angeles can hold more elephants than they have now correct?
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they have only one old cow now and she’s sharing the facility with the rhino until she passes. No plans to move her as of a few months ago.

LA zoo is a possibility but they would have to move out the cows and move Billy into a breeding situation as he is unrelated to everything.
 
John Marchwick said:
I never thought about that Columbus and Saint Louis swap but that actually makes the most sense. I thought Beco was somehow related to Jade, Pryia and Maliha through his mothers side but if he’s not than I think that’s a great idea. I know Columbus is trying to get a new bull at least that’s what I heard a while back anyways.

Tucker could stay at the Houston Zoo however Shanti only has 1 daughter that Tucker can breed with and that’s Joy. I’ve heard a suggestion what Houston could do anyways is sent Shanti and Joy to the Smithsonian National Zoo, have Baylor, Duncan and eventually Nelson when he’s older go to the Phoenix Zoo and create a bachelor herd there while Winnie, Tess, Tupelo, Tilly, Mai Thai, and Thailand stay at the Houston Zoo considering that herd is multi generational and Tucker be sent to another AZA facility to breed.
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National wouldn't have enough space for potentially "5" breeding age females. They have Maharani who they seem to still be trying to breed. They will have Trong Nhi and Nhi Linh soon(who seem to have their own social issues) so adding Shanti and Joy to the mix could be a disaster. 3 different matrilines in a herd that already has a history of issues wouldn't be a good mix.

Best thing for them to do would be to send Baylor, Duncan and Nelson to a bachelor facility like Denver. I don't think Denver could add 3 males to their herd but another facility like Dickerson, Tulsa or even El Paso if they decided to keep elephants once Savannah passes. This would even allow Teddy to move to a facility with males he's familiar with once he ages out of the herd.
 
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Given we know Mali is conformed pregnant and due this fall here are the females that I believe could be pregnant

Confirmed pregnancies
Mali - Rosamond Gifford Zoo and due in fall 2022.

Most likely pregnant
Belle - Fort Worth Zoo
Rose Tu - Oregon Zoo
Shanti - Houston Zoo
Lilly - African Lion Safari
Natasha - African Lion Safari
Opal - African Lion Safari

Unlikely pregnant
Rudy - Columbus Zoo
Sunny - Columbus Zoo
Rani - Saint Louis Zoo
Maliha - Saint Louis Zoo
Jade - Saint Louis Zoo
Rozana - Albuquerque Zoo.
Val - Endangered Ark Foundation
 
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StoppableSan said:
Temporary phaseout or permanent? The elephant expansion was rather recent and also was a big part of their capital campaign. o_O
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permanent. Indu is sharing the habitat and barn with a male Indian rhino. Separately obviously.
I am sure the expansion was due to Reba’s aggression to humans (at least in full contact) and to other elephants. There was talk about having a bachelor herd according to my source but this was years and years ago. Apparently the upper management changed their minds.
 
NOVAElephantEnthusiast said:
National wouldn't have enough space for potentially "5" breeding age females. They have Maharani who they seem to still be trying to breed. They will have Trong Nhi and Nhi Linh soon(who seem to have their own social issues) so adding Shanti and Joy to the mix could be a disaster. 3 different matrilines in a herd that already has a history of issues wouldn't be a good mix.

Best thing for them to do would be to send Baylor, Duncan and Nelson to a bachelor facility like Denver. I don't think Denver could add 3 males to their herd but another facility like Dickerson, Tulsa or even El Paso if they decided to keep elephants once Savannah passes. This would even allow Teddy to move to a facility with males he's familiar with once he ages out of the herd.
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El Paso is phasing out elephants I thought and while they could go to Tulsa, I know Tulsa wants a breeding herd and NOT a bachelor herd as they’re currently building a new Asian elephant exhibit of their own as well. Denver has 5 males already so that’s a no go I don’t think and the Dickerson Park Zoo I suppose could maybe take a couple of them in.
 
Mr.Ivory said:
Given we know Mali is conformed pregnant and due this fall here are the females that I believe could be pregnant

Confirmed pregnancies
Mali - Rosamond Gifford Zoo and due in fall 2022.

Most likely pregnant
Belle - Fort Worth Zoo
Rose Tu - Oregon Zoo
Shanti - Houston Zoo
Lilly - African Lion Safari
Natasha - African Lion Safari
Opal - African Lion Safari

Unlikely pregnant
Rudy - Columbus Zoo
Sunny - Columbus Zoo
Rani - Saint Louis Zoo
Maliha - Saint Louis Zoo
Jade - Saint Louis Zoo
Rozana - Albuquerque Zoo.
Val - Endangered Ark Foundation
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Say is Rose Tu showing any indication she’s still pregnant @Mr.Ivory ? I think we speculated in the past anyway that Rose Tu is either due this year or 2023? if Lily is pregnant I think she’s most likely due in 2023 however I could be wrong about that. Nellie and Hannah at Lion Country Safari are at that age now getting old enough to breed so I wonder how they’re gonna breed those girls? Shanti I suspect isn’t due until 2023 because lately she seems to have a calf anyways every 3 years. Duncan (2014), Joy (2017), Nelson (2020), but that’s my opinion anyways of that situation.

Im also curious as to who Val is. Has she had any offspring of her own?
 
John Marchwick said:
Say is Rose Tu showing any indication she’s still pregnant @Mr.Ivory ? I think we speculated in the past anyway that Rose Tu is either due this year or 2023? if Lily is pregnant I think she’s most likely due in 2023 however I could be wrong about that. Nellie and Hannah at Lion Country Safari are at that age now getting old enough to breed so I wonder how they’re gonna breed those girls? Shanti I suspect isn’t due until 2023 because lately she seems to have a calf anyways every 3 years. Duncan (2014), Joy (2017), Nelson (2020), but that’s my opinion anyways of that situation.

I'm also curious as to who Val is. Has she had any offspring of her own?
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I would be in favor of a bull swap for the African Lion Safari perhaps an import from Europe to allow Johnsons eldest daughters the ability to breed, the Lion Country Safari is in Florida not Canada.

Given the birthing intervals of Lily it is reasonable to believe she will give birth late this year or into early 2023, Shanti given her birthing intervals she will most likely give birth sometime next year.

Val is the daughter to Whimpy and the younger half sister to Natasha, through her mother she has three half siblings, and three full siblings a younger sister born in 2015, and two younger brothers her brother Hugo is currently at the Dickerson Park zoo.
Zoofan15 said:
Val has not produced any offspring to date. According to the database there’s no bulls at her circus. She’s 15 years old now though.
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Indeed Val has not as of yet had a calf of her own, there are currtnelt two bulls residing at the Endangered Ark her father Tommy son of Vance the full brother of Targa, and Obert who is planed to mate with her and her sister Dori Marie.
 
Zoofan15 said:
According to the database, she’s with the circus now (which are an extension of the ESA), so that seems likely. She’s one of their youngest elephants as the majority of the circus’ cows are 50 years or over.
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Val is no longer living in a circus she is now living at the Endangered ark foundation with her mother and two younger siblings
 
Zoofan15 said:
According to the database, she’s with the circus now (which are an extension of the ESA), so that seems likely. She’s one of their youngest elephants as the majority of the cows are 50 years or over.
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well, I already don’t support them then for using wild animals in a circus. I know her mothers wile born so that already to me indicates she needs to be bred ASAP.
 
Mr.Ivory said:
I would be in favor of a bull swap for the African Lion Safari perhaps an import from Europe to allow Johnsons eldest daughters the ability to breed, the Lion Country Safari is in Florida not Canada.

Given the birthing intervals of Lily it is reasonable to believe she will give birth late this year or into early 2023, Shanti given her birthing intervals she will most likely give birth sometime next year.

Val is the daughter to Whimpy and the younger half sister to Natasha, through her mother she has three half siblings, and three full siblings a younger sister born in 2015, and two younger brothers her brother Hugo is currently at the Dickerson Park zoo.
Indeed Val has not as of yet had a calf of her own, there are currtnelt two bulls residing at the Endangered Ark her father Tommy son of Vance the full brother of Targa, and Obert who is planed to mate with her and her sister Dori Marie.
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but what about Rose Tu? Is she still showing signs she’s pregnant anyway? What import from Europe would be genetically valuable to the United States? We’re getting 6 Asian elephants from Europe to my knowledge over the next coming years. How genetically valuable is Hugo?
 
ZCChip said:
With all of the surplus males and older cows and zoos are changing priorities to breeding, why not use the sanctuaries in California and Tennessee for those surplus animals? I believe Tennessee is changing their policy to accept bulls.
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honestly, Tennessee would be great for this since they're an AZA accredited facility
 
John Marchwick said:
well, I already don’t support them then for using wild animals in a circus. I know her mothers wile born so that already to me indicates she needs to be bred ASAP.
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Whimpy is in her 50s so she may not be breeding anymore. She has a daughter at Rockton. But her younger daughters are sired by Tommy which is a problem as he is the only breeding bull there and Val needs to bred soon.
 
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