Australasian Asian Elephant Population 2022

[Swanson02]

Luk Chai's rather short for a male; not much taller than the girls at Melbourne, who are short themselves. If I was to guess, Pathi Harn would be over nine feet ( at least 2.7 metres) at the moment, but will definitely reach ten feet (3 metres).

I thought it was very rare that an Asian bull surpassed 3 metres, normally maxing out at around 2.9 metres?

Kulab was in labour for four days and appeared to suffer stalled labour as @Hyak_II mentioned.

After six days of labour, Porntip’s calf was declared dead - before being born alive three days later. Her labour was complicated by the position of the calf, which was upside down.

By contrast, Dokkoon gave birth to her first calf (who was overdue) after just four hours of labour.

It is ironic that after being declared dead and having such a difficult birth, Pathi Harn will likely grow into one of the region's largest and most physically impressive bulls ever.

Also, does anyone know what was the specific birth defect Willow died of? Also, could it be present in Num Oi's future calves?

I was also thinking the other day on the PR gamble Melbourne has taken with having three cows all due at once. If all three births are successful and Melbourne's calves survive until they reach Werribee it would be amazing and I could see the media labelling it as a "triumph of conservation". On the other hand, disaster could strike with stillbirths, calves dying in the neonatal stage, or in the years before they leave for Werribee. If this happens elephants not just in Victoria but across Australia could take a real hit and we could see calls to "return the to the wild" however stupid that may be. Another thing is the risk of EEHV once the calves get a little older. Having multiple calves all of the same age is great for their development but it does run the risk of EEHV running through them, we could end up in a worst-case scenario like Zurich.

 

[Zoofan15]

I thought it was very rare that an Asian bull surpassed 3 metres, normally maxing out at around 2.9 metres?

I’ve found various sources on height, with most agreeing Asian elephant bulls can reach up to 3.5 metres at the shoulder (one source even said 3.8 metres for this species).

Also, does anyone know what was the specific birth defect Willow died of? Also, could it be present in Num Oi's future calves?

Willow’s cause of death was a staphylococcus infection; but the condition she was born with was carpal flexure, which prevented her from straightening her ankles.

It’s not uncommon in ungulates. I’ve heard of several giraffes suffer from it (including Forrest at Auckland Zoo); and it’s also seen within the equine industry - which Melbourne Zoo consulted with experts in the field of for advice on how to treat Willow.

It’s not hereditary and statistically there’s no greater chance of Num Oi giving birth to a calf with this condition than any other female.

 

[Zoofan15]

I was also thinking the other day on the PR gamble Melbourne has taken with having three cows all due at once. If all three births are successful and Melbourne's calves survive until they reach Werribee it would be amazing and I could see the media labelling it as a "triumph of conservation". On the other hand, disaster could strike with stillbirths, calves dying in the neonatal stage, or in the years before they leave for Werribee. If this happens elephants not just in Victoria but across Australia could take a real hit and we could see calls to "return the to the wild" however stupid that may be. Another thing is the risk of EEHV once the calves get a little older. Having multiple calves all of the same age is great for their development but it does run the risk of EEHV running through them, we could end up in a worst-case scenario like Zurich.

The chance of a stillbirth are highest for first time mothers (approximately 40%), so I’m not too concerned about this considering Dokkoon and Num Oi are giving birth to their third surviving calves, are in their 20’s and their previous births have been live births. Mali conversely has at least a 60% chance of a live birth, which anecdotally speaking I’d say is even higher.

Similarly, I have every confidence they’ll survive the neonate stage unless impaired by a congenital condition or difficult birth.

The greatest danger I believe will come around the age of weaning, when Zoos Victoria may see its first outbreak of EEHV. It could indeed have catastrophic consequences for the herd given the calves will all be highly susceptible to this virus all at the same time. Factors suspected to contribute are the drop in antibodies from maternal breast milk (as their mothers wean them and fall pregnant again); and stressors from changes to herd dynamics e.g. the arrival of new elephants. Werribee may therefore be cautious of taking on Burma and Permai given their potential to rock the boat in more ways than one.

PR wise, an outbreak of EEHV would be most likely to arise as new pregnancies are being announced, which would counter any tragic news; but obviously it would be preferable to avoid such a tragedy altogether. Werribee need to be proactive and introduce routine herd testing at least 1-2 times a week.

 

[Jambo]

I thought it was very rare that an Asian bull surpassed 3 metres, normally maxing out at around 2.9 metres?

Yeah, most bulls are usually around the three metre mark, but Pathi Harn will likely exceed that. Cows normally reach about 2.3 metres; although Porntip at Dubbo is around 2.6 metres tall!

It’s not uncommon in ungulates. I’ve heard of several giraffes suffer from it (including Forrest at Auckland Zoo); and it’s also seen within the equine industry - which Melbourne Zoo consulted with experts in the field of for advice on how to treat Willow.

It’s not hereditary and statistically there’s no greater chance of Num Oi giving birth to a calf with this condition than any other female.

It was the first case in an elephant ever seen in captivity. Unfortunately for Willow though it was more advanced than most other cases in other species.

As @Zoofan15 stated, she didn't actually die from this condition, but rather from a viral infection she contracted probably due to her weak health she had due to the condition; she couldn't nurse ect.

 

[Jambo]

The greatest danger I believe will come around the age of weaning, when Zoos Victoria may see its first outbreak of EEHV. It could indeed have catastrophic consequences for the herd given the calves will all be highly susceptible to this virus all at the same time. Factors suspected to contribute are the drop in antibodies from maternal breast milk (as their mothers wean them and fall pregnant again); and stressors from changes to herd dynamics e.g. the arrival of new elephants. Werribee may therefore be cautious of taking on Burma and Permai given their potential to rock the boat in more ways than one.

I believe it's stress from the cows in the herd that can lead to an outbreak, so I think Melbourne will be willing to get the move to Werribee done as soon as they can, ultimately before the calves are prone to EEHV.

Large, artificial age gaps will also help with preventing EEHV; which Werribee still plan to follow.

I doubt Burma and Permai will make a difference; both females are very submissive, so should be accepted into the herd without any major problems whatsoever.

 

[Zoofan15]

I believe it's stress from the cows in the herd that can lead to an outbreak, so I think Melbourne will be willing to get the move to Werribee done as soon as they can, ultimately before the calves are prone to EEHV.

Large, artificial age gaps will also help with preventing EEHV; which Werribee still plan to follow.

I doubt Burma and Permai will make a difference; both females are very submissive, so should be accepted into the herd without any major problems whatsoever.

Yes, my understanding is stress can activate the virus in the same way physiological stress can cause a lapse in the immune system.

What would actually be beneficial is to bring in Burma and Permai before the calves are at weaning age and still have the immunity from their mother's milk. Whether this will be possible will depend on if there's any delays in transferring them to Werribee.

I'm guessing Werribee will aim for five year age gaps between their calves. As we've seen with Tukta, there's no guarantee this will protect the calves from EEHV - so all we can hope for at this stage is that they're vigilant with testing. There's no room for complacency.

 

[Jambo]

Yes, my understanding is stress can activate the virus in the same way physiological stress can cause a lapse in the immune system.

What would actually be beneficial is to bring in Burma and Permai before the calves are at weaning age and still have the immunity from their mother's milk. Whether this will be possible will depend on if there's any delays in transferring them to Werribee.

I'm guessing Werribee will aim for five year age gaps between their calves. As we've seen with Tukta, there's no guarantee this will protect the calves from EEHV - so all we can hope for at this stage is that they're vigilant with testing. There's no room for complacency.

The cows themselves are the ones who are stressed first, and the stress activates the virus (which is usually dormant) within them. It's then passed onto the calves of the herd, who are susceptible.

It'll be interesting to know what stress Taronga's herd where going through at the time of Tukta's death. I'm thinking it may have had something to do with Jai Dee, who at the time was a developing, young juvenile male, and possibly put stress on the two adult cows.

 

[Zoofan15]

It'll be interesting to know what stress Taronga's herd where going through at the time of Tukta's death. I'm thinking it may have had something to do with Jai Dee, who at the time was a developing, young juvenile male, and possibly put stress on the two adult cows.

I don't believe Jai Dee would have been the stressor as he was only a 16 month old calf when Tukta died. The herd previously coped fine with Pathi Harn, who began challenging the cows as young at two and a half, with even that noted as unusual for a bull of his age.

I have one theory re stress:

Pak Boon suffers from TB and this was activated following Tukta's birth. With this in mind, she was likely given a heavy dose of antibiotics in the months following Jai Dee's birth in May 2017. A year on, they may have relaxed this treatment, which put stress on her immune system. This stess could have then activated the EEHV in Pak Boon.

 

[Elephantelephant]

I have one theory re stress:

Pak Boon suffers from TB and this was activated following Tukta's birth. With this in mind, she was likely given a heavy dose of antibiotics in the months following Jai Dee's birth in May 2017. A year on, they may have relaxed this treatment, which put stress on her immune system. This stess could have then activated the EEHV in Pak Boon.

Interesting thought. I think it's quite possible that it's true. Anyway, the virus behaves completely unpredictably.

About birth intervals between calves:
I think it seems unnecessary to leave bigger gaps between the calves in the birth intervals. This slows down breeding, and even an elephant around the age of eight can die just as quickly as a younger calf. The theory that older calves should be better at defending themselves against the virus has absolutely not worked lately. (Jazmine, Omysha - 8 years, Beco - 12 years) It seems that the only solution is to discover the virus before the first symptoms appear, then it is usually unsolvable.

 

[Zoofan15]

About birth intervals between calves:
I think it seems unnecessary to leave bigger gaps between the calves in the birth intervals. This slows down breeding, and even an elephant around the age of eight can die just as quickly as a younger calf. The theory that older calves should be better at defending themselves against the virus has absolutely not worked lately. (Jazmine, Omysha - 8 years, Beco - 12 years) It seems that the only solution is to discover the virus before the first symptoms appear, then it is usually unsolvable.

That’s what I said, citing Tukta as an example. She’s the region’s only EEHV fatality to date and died a couple of months before her eighth birthday. Her sibling was born 6.5 years after her.

I imagine Werribee will aim for birth intervals of around four or five years. Placements for bulls will be the limiting factor, so for that reason alone I doubt they’ll have the confidence to breed to natural birth intervals of three years, but I’m confident we’ll see a compromise between that and the seven and eight year age gaps we’ve seen at Dubbo.

Bearing in mind eight years is regarded as the time when EEHV risk begins to decrease and the peak time is around weaning age, we will likely have at least two cohorts within the main risk period at any given time. Early detection is key.

 

[Swanson02]

Interesting thought. I think it's quite possible that it's true. Anyway, the virus behaves completely unpredictably.

About birth intervals between calves:
I think it seems unnecessary to leave bigger gaps between the calves in the birth intervals. This slows down breeding, and even an elephant around the age of eight can die just as quickly as a younger calf. The theory that older calves should be better at defending themselves against the virus has absolutely not worked lately. (Jazmine, Omysha - 8 years, Beco - 12 years) It seems that the only solution is to discover the virus before the first symptoms appear, then it is usually unsolvable.

Who is the oldest elephant to ever die of EEHV and what age did they die?

Also, is EEHV as prevalent in captivity in places like India and Thailand?

I heard it is connected to temperature, is there any truth to that? I.e. in general elephants in colder locations are more likely to have trouble with it.

I also heard EEHV is more prevalent in smaller facilities with elephants in closer proximity? On that how do facilities with large open areas go with EEHV?

 

[Elephantelephant]

Who is the oldest elephant to ever die of EEHV and what age did they die?

According to the elephant database, the oldest elephant to succumb to the virus should be the Asian cow Kathy Sh-Boom from the Niabi Zoo, who died at 42 years. However, this is rather an exception. Deaths after age 15 could be counted in units.

Also, is EEHV as prevalent in captivity in places like India and Thailand?

EEHV is found in captivity all over the world, and captive elephants in Asian countries are no exception. It's just not talked about as much. However, calves in the wild are also known to die from this virus, but probably to a lesser extent than in captivity.

I heard it is connected to temperature, is there any truth to that? I.e. in general elephants in colder locations are more likely to have trouble with it.

I can't answer that question for sure, but it's more than likely. Elephants prefer warmer places and are therefore happier there. Maybe it can be related to the stress factor. Elephants in colder conditions are more stressed and therefore more susceptible to contracting the virus. But it's just speculation.

I also heard EEHV is more prevalent in smaller facilities with elephants in closer proximity? On that how do facilities with large open areas go with EEHV?

I think the factor is not the size of the facility, but the size of the herd. Larger facilities can house more elephants. Calves in larger groups do not suffer as much from the virus and seem to build collective immunity. Pairi Daiza Zoo can serve as an example. With more than 20 elephants, they have one of the largest herds in Europe and have yet to encounter EEHV. Blood from their elephants also helped to cure Indali from Chester. Another example is Hanover. They also did not encounter with virus. Dublin has a large herd, but there was a case of contagion when Zinda fell ill. However, she was cured. So it is possible that even if someone does contract the virus, a calf from a larger herd is much more resistant than a calf from a small herd. And that should be the way, to build larger herds that can better withstand the virus.

 

[Zoofan15]

I can't answer that question for sure, but it's more than likely. Elephants prefer warmer places and are therefore happier there. Maybe it can be related to the stress factor. Elephants in colder conditions are more stressed and therefore more susceptible to contracting the virus. But it's just speculation.

Taronga identified building a facility to house their matriarchal herd indoors for an extended time over the winter, citing the cold weather as a potential contributor to EEHV virus. Similar to humans, the cold weather can make elephants feel run down and weakened immune systems would contribute to EEHV activation.

Conversely, it feels like we’ve had a spate of EEHV fatalities across the Northern Hemisphere summer season, so perhaps temperature extremes at both ends are stressors.

I think the factor is not the size of the facility, but the size of the herd. Larger facilities can house more elephants. Calves in larger groups do not suffer as much from the virus and seem to build collective immunity. Pairi Daiza Zoo can serve as an example. With more than 20 elephants, they have one of the largest herds in Europe and have yet to encounter EEHV. Blood from their elephants also helped to cure Indali from Chester. Another example is Hanover. They also did not encounter with virus. Dublin has a large herd, but there was a case of contagion when Zinda fell ill. However, she was cured. So it is possible that even if someone does contract the virus, a calf from a larger herd is much more resistant than a calf from a small herd. And that should be the way, to build larger herds that can better withstand the virus.

I’ve heard this also. Pinnawala Elephant Orphanage is another example with over 90 elephants housed on site. A study revealed their juvenile elephants had a higher antibody level than their European counterparts - with higher antibody levels correlating to a lower incidence of EEHV. The larger herd size increases their contact with EEHV shedding elephants, which increases their antibodies.

Werribee are aiming for a herd size in the 20’s - so will hopefully similarly benefit compared to facilities that hold small herds.

 

[ZCChip]

I just had a thought. Is the EEHV like AIDS/HIV which is transmitted through bodily fluids or like COVID-19 or influenza which is transmitted through respiration/contact? Has research pinpointed this?

 

[Hyak_II]

I just had a thought. Is the EEHV like AIDS/HIV which is transmitted through bodily fluids or like COVID-19 or influenza which is transmitted through respiration/contact? Has research pinpointed this?

Researchers aren’t entirely certain yet.

Also using HIV/aids as an analogy is perhaps not the most tactfully thought out example. Regardless of that though, EEHV definitely does not transmit in the same way as HIV/AIDS, which is transmitted primarily through sexual fluids and blood. EEHV spreads much more prevalently with far less contact required.

 

[ZCChip]

Researchers aren’t entirely certain yet.

Also using HIV/aids as an analogy is perhaps not the most tactfully thought out example. Regardless of that though, EEHV definitely does not transmit in the same way as HIV/AIDS, which is transmitted primarily through sexual fluids and blood. EEHV spreads much more prevalently with far less contact required.

Thanks. I was thinking blood. HIV/AIDS is not just a sexually transmitted disease, it also can be passed through blood transfusion and in the elephants case it may be through mother to calf.
We are still figuring this out along with research.

If you have a better example, please do share. I am only thinking out loud so constructive feedback will be great.

 

[Jambo]

Thanks. I was thinking blood. HIV/AIDS is not just a sexually transmitted disease, it also can be passed through blood transfusion and in the elephants case it may be through mother to calf.
We are still figuring this out along with research.

EEHV is mainly transferred when adult cows began to shed the usually dormant virus. This is thought to be caused by stress and can be thanks to a range of factors; temperature was mentioned above.

It's not entirely known how its passed from elephant to elephant, but is likely through contact with infected elephants.

 

[Zoofan15]

Thanks. I was thinking blood. HIV/AIDS is not just a sexually transmitted disease, it also can be passed through blood transfusion and in the elephants case it may be through mother to calf.
We are still figuring this out along with research.

If you have a better example, please do share. I am only thinking out loud so constructive feedback will be great.

The Herpes Simplex virus in humans is a better comparison. The two strains have various transmission methods ranging from contact with an infected object to exchange of bodily fluids. It follows the concept of viral shedding and is in the name of EEHV.

Similarly, viral shedding of the Herpes Simplex Virus is more likely when the immune system is weakened through stress or ill health etc.

 

[Swanson02]

I watched this great mini-documentary yesterday on the major environmental issues within Kruger National Park caused by elephant overpopulation.

The video and previous elephant surveys predict there are currently somewhere between 34,000-44,000 elephants in the extended Kruger area. The video also estimated that Kruger only had a carrying capacity of 3000-4000 elephants and hence was on the brink of environmental collapse. You just have to watch the documentary to observe the ringbarked, stunted, and felled trees all caused by Kruger's excess of elephants.

Obviously, this whole scenario has created a major dilemma for South Africa National Parks. Transporting 30,000+ elephants could literally cost a billion dollars and where do you locate them? Most countries elsewhere in Africa that have endangered elephant populations don't have the infrastructure to defend their own let alone more elephants from poaching and habitat destruction. The alternative of culling 30,000+ elephants would be disastrous PR-wise for Kruger and would also greatly undermine elephant conservation in places where they are in decline. Poachers could see it as a form of validation.

Personally, I agree with a combination of the two, i.e. transporting as many animals as possible to locations where they would thrive and unfortunately culling the rest. Anyway while watching this documentary I couldn't help but think of Monarto. I know myself and many others would prefer they hold a bachelor or a small breeding group of more endangered Asian elephants but if the situation presented itself I could see Monarto importing a large family group (a topic a keeper insisted on last time I visited) of African elephants instead.

Obviously historically we have seen many zoos in the US, Europe, and now the Middle East and China import whole herds of African elephants that were designated to be culled so why not Australia? I have a sneaking suspicion that Monarto is hoping that this might happen (in a good way). Why else would Monarto name its four feature areas in the upcoming Wild Africa precinct - Etosha, Amboseli, Chobe, and Samburu? Search any one of those parks into google images and the majority of results will feature elephants. That's like having a Yellowstone area without Bison or Kakadu themed area without crocodiles!

In the inevitable event of a Kruger mass-culling, I assume South Africa National Parks would be very eager to help any accredited international zoos receive as many elephants as they would like for nothing or at a very low price. For SANParks, it would be a way to save some face in an action that will draw a lot of criticism. Theoretically, I would like Monarto to import a large family group of 10-15 cows and calves and 2-3 founding bulls to extend the herd's longevity without imports. Monarto could be the region's only holder and could import/export a couple of bulls from the US or Europe every few decades when they need to either offload some excess animals or freshen up their genetic stocks.

Monarto would be perfect in almost every way, they have a plentitude of space, the climate is suitable, themeing is a perfect match for African elephants, etc. The only issue I can see arising is that of funding for both the transfer and the facilities as ZoosSA isn't a massive organization. Saying that though I could see the South Australian Government chipping in as 'Saving an elephant family from culling' would be a good PR boost to whoever party is incumbent at the time. Likewise, AR groups couldn't really argue against the move so it wouldn't be a risk for the SA government to involve themselves in the speculative project.

Anyway sorry for my ramblings, just watching that mini-doco on Kruger's unfortunate elephant overpopulation problems really got me thinking about the unique opportunity it could present a place like Monarto.

 

[Zorro]

I watched this great mini-documentary yesterday on the major environmental issues within Kruger National Park caused by elephant overpopulation.

The video and previous elephant surveys predict there are currently somewhere between 34,000-44,000 elephants in the extended Kruger area. The video also estimated that Kruger only had a carrying capacity of 3000-4000 elephants and hence was on the brink of environmental collapse. You just have to watch the documentary to observe the ringbarked, stunted, and felled trees all caused by Kruger's excess of elephants.

Obviously, this whole scenario has created a major dilemma for South Africa National Parks. Transporting 30,000+ elephants could literally cost a billion dollars and where do you locate them? Most countries elsewhere in Africa that have endangered elephant populations don't have the infrastructure to defend their own let alone more elephants from poaching and habitat destruction. The alternative of culling 30,000+ elephants would be disastrous PR-wise for Kruger and would also greatly undermine elephant conservation in places where they are in decline. Poachers could see it as a form of validation.

Personally, I agree with a combination of the two, i.e. transporting as many animals as possible to locations where they would thrive and unfortunately culling the rest. Anyway while watching this documentary I couldn't help but think of Monarto. I know myself and many others would prefer they hold a bachelor or a small breeding group of more endangered Asian elephants but if the situation presented itself I could see Monarto importing a large family group (a topic a keeper insisted on last time I visited) of African elephants instead.

Obviously historically we have seen many zoos in the US, Europe, and now the Middle East and China import whole herds of African elephants that were designated to be culled so why not Australia? I have a sneaking suspicion that Monarto is hoping that this might happen (in a good way). Why else would Monarto name its four feature areas in the upcoming Wild Africa precinct - Etosha, Amboseli, Chobe, and Samburu? Search any one of those parks into google images and the majority of results will feature elephants. That's like having a Yellowstone area without Bison or Kakadu themed area without crocodiles!

In the inevitable event of a Kruger mass-culling, I assume South Africa National Parks would be very eager to help any accredited international zoos receive as many elephants as they would like for nothing or at a very low price. For SANParks, it would be a way to save some face in an action that will draw a lot of criticism. Theoretically, I would like Monarto to import a large family group of 10-15 cows and calves and 2-3 founding bulls to extend the herd's longevity without imports. Monarto could be the region's only holder and could import/export a couple of bulls from the US or Europe every few decades when they need to either offload some excess animals or freshen up their genetic stocks.

Monarto would be perfect in almost every way, they have a plentitude of space, the climate is suitable, themeing is a perfect match for African elephants, etc. The only issue I can see arising is that of funding for both the transfer and the facilities as ZoosSA isn't a massive organization. Saying that though I could see the South Australian Government chipping in as 'Saving an elephant family from culling' would be a good PR boost to whoever party is incumbent at the time. Likewise, AR groups couldn't really argue against the move so it wouldn't be a risk for the SA government to involve themselves in the speculative project.

Anyway sorry for my ramblings, just watching that mini-doco on Kruger's unfortunate elephant overpopulation problems really got me thinking about the unique opportunity it could present a place like Monarto.

While some parts of Africa are way over stocked with elephants why is there's a need to ship captive bred elephants out of an English zoo to put them into the wild when there are numbers going begging to be relocated to somewhere?