ZSL Whipsnade Zoo Whipsnade's Elephants 2022

[Pertinax]

Azizah was known to sway from side-to-side when stressed, as a result of trauma after being taken from her mother when young. This action became more aggressive (and upsetting to the uninformed visitor) the more she became stressed. A common trigger at Whipsnade was when she became separated from the rest of the herd, particularly her calves. You see it briefly during the Thi sequence.

I seem to remember once seeing an Elephant at Whipsnade doing this, She was in a field way at the back behind a hedge and with one other Elephant. Would that have been Azizah? Weaving/swaying and head-bobbing are, as you know, both common signs of trauma in Elephants and the actions temporarily increase as stress mounts. I guess seeing Thi being moved was one of those situations.

 

[Panthera1981]

I seem to remember once seeing an Elephant at Whipsnade doing this, She was in a field way at the back behind a hedge and with one other Elephant. Would that have been Azizah? Weaving/swaying and head-bobbing are, as you know, both common signs of trauma in Elephants and the actions temporarily increase as stress mounts. I guess seeing Thi being moved was one of those situations.

Correct! I know ZSL tried their best with explaining Azizah’s public persona and background but certain types of visitor made they’re own conclusions.

Regarding Protective Contact, someone may have earlier mentioned the daily elephant walks. These were stopped publicly roughly around the same time the new management measures came into force. This had more to do with keeper/elephant welfare in response to staff changes, but primarily because visitors became increasingly bolder and aggressive towards the group whilst they were out walking. And ,yes, the keepers DID take Mya out as part of the group. The only one that stayed behind was Emmett-for obvious reasons! Kaylee was always the lead elephant.

It’s a shame the walks had to stop. It was fantastic enrichment and, if you showed respect, you could get some fantastic photos! But I lost count of the amount of times I witnessed people running ahead of the group so they would stop for a photo (and being verbally abusive to the keepers when they rightly wouldn’t); convoys of cars following the group, or people trying to grab the elephants or pull their tails. I think the walks did continue pre-opening time, whether they still do Im not sure.

 

[Lafone]

Correct! I know ZSL tried their best with explaining Azizah’s public persona and background but certain types of visitor made they’re own conclusions.

Regarding Protective Contact, someone may have earlier mentioned the daily elephant walks. These were stopped publicly roughly around the same time the new management measures came into force. This had more to do with keeper/elephant welfare in response to staff changes, but primarily because visitors became increasingly bolder and aggressive towards the group whilst they were out walking. And ,yes, the keepers DID take Mya out as part of the group. The only one that stayed behind was Emmett-for obvious reasons! Kaylee was always the lead elephant.

It’s a shame the walks had to stop. It was fantastic enrichment and, if you showed respect, you could get some fantastic photos! But I lost count of the amount of times I witnessed people running ahead of the group so they would stop for a photo (and being verbally abusive to the keepers when they rightly wouldn’t); convoys of cars following the group, or people trying to grab the elephants or pull their tails. I think the walks did continue pre-opening time, whether they still do Im not sure.

I agree I think they got to a place with the walks where the public made them pretty dangerous - I started not going to look or take pics tbh as the behaviour was not right (people not elephants!). On crowded days it looked like a circus.

Protective contact is more natural for everyone and safer - imagine if an elephant injured someone and was blamed for it.

On the point about walking I did actually ask a keeper if they still took them out as the elephants never looked like they didn’t enjoy it and they said no (including OOH) but that may not be the case recently - this was a while ago.

Poor behaviour by the public is pretty hard for zoos to manage generally - not sure about others but I think it’s got worse over time, not to sound like an old stick as am not one as it happens, but people wanting to be ‘in’ the story (selfies, pictures doing daft things like climbing in with the penguins at CWP which I saw a few months ago) means it doesn’t always look like it’s enough for some people to watch the animals. Not to generalise about all visitors as it is a minority but even yesterday there were adults letting their kids chase a wallaby around at ZSL - they did get them to stop when asked but ‘we wanted a film of it running!’ Isn’t valid.

 

[Rajang-GOAT]

Sorry to bring it up again but I was thinking does anyone have any photos of a pregnant Donna?

 

[TeaLovingDave]

@The Hedgehog - you seem to have a recurrent and unhealthy fixation with trying to armchair-diagnose various zoo animals past and present with mental illness and psychological instabilities, and advocating that the animals in question should be, or should have been, destroyed - generally whilst knowing little to nothing about the actual situation.

This occasion is nowhere near the first time, but I amiably suggest you make it the last

 

[The Hedgehog]

@The Hedgehog - you seem to have a recurrent and unhealthy fixation with trying to armchair-diagnose various zoo animals past and present with mental illness and psychological instabilities, and advocating that the animals in question should be, or should have been, destroyed - generally whilst knowing little to nothing about the actual situation.

This occasion is nowhere near the first time, but I amiably suggest you make it the last

@TeaLovingDave can you please give me more examples of this?

 

[Jambo]

@TeaLovingDave can you please give me more examples of this?

You shouldn't need any examples, besides what you've just said regarding Mya. Go back and read these last few pages yourself.

Some of the things you have said can be extremely disrespectful for those who knew Mya well. Even I myself was a little angered by some of your comments, being someone who's known Mya over quite some time. Those are unfair and unjust assumptions you are making about her. You obviously don't know anything about her or her situation, and some of your comments are just utterly unacceptable. Especially on a public forum like this where most (if not all of us) care for the wellbeing of these animals.

I will now be the last to ask if you can just end this discussion surrounding Mya here. Thank you.

 

[Panthera1981]

Further to Jambo’s post, should TLD wish to take this further, I trust he’ll contact those in question through the private channels. However, I don’t see why he should have to as his comments speak for all of us.

I’ve been associated with ZSL in one way or another most of my life, and I’ve had the pleasure of meeting some of you in person in that time. However some of today’s posts have left me deeply disturbed.

 

[Zoofan15]

@TeaLovingDave can you please give me more examples of this?

As my final note on this I will just mention that what you post impacts upon the site and therefore everyone who's a part of ZooChat. If we want to uphold the reputation of this site and be respected as a community we need to be mindful of what we're posting if both accurate (based on facts, not personal opinion) and respectful.

Topics such as euthanasia are highly emotive and it's insensitive to throw about recommendations as to when it should be carried out without having the insight (or authoriry) to make such calls.

As a general rule, thinking before you post is a good rule of thumb.

 

[Zia]

@TeaLovingDave can you please give me more examples of this?

I can.

To be clear - I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here that you are asking because you do not fully understand why people are upset by and angered by your comments. Here are a few more examples where you have posted inflammatory, incorrect, and damaging comments. It is easy to find examples by searching your postings for words like murder / aggression / killed etc.

Shaka did not kill M'Changa...



Kesho did not 'murder' an infant...



Kumbuka was not ousted by anyone and certainly did not have ADHD or Autism.



I have tried to explain this to you before (see below) but I will reiterate - you MUST consider the context and environment these animals are in and the complexity around all of the social, cognitive and behavioural factors at play.

We should not advocate simply euthanising an animal due to behavioural issues arising from the situation we as humans have placed them in. It is a disgusting suggestion that only serves to illustrate how little knowledge you have regarding animal management or any of the specific situations / individuals involved.

 

[Mr.Ivory]

I can.

To be clear - I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here that you are asking because you do not fully understand why people are upset by and angered by your comments. Here are a few more examples where you have posted inflammatory, incorrect, and damaging comments. It is easy to find examples by searching your postings for words like murder / aggression / killed etc.

Shaka did not kill M'Changa...

View attachment 566757

Kesho did not 'murder' an infant...

View attachment 566758

Kumbuka was not ousted by anyone and certainly did not have ADHD or Autism.

View attachment 566759

I have tried to explain this to you before (see below) but I will reiterate - you MUST consider the context and environment these animals are in and the complexity around all of the social, cognitive and behavioural factors at play.

We should not advocate simply euthanising an animal due to behavioural issues arising from the situation we as humans have placed them in. It is a disgusting suggestion that only serves to illustrate how little knowledge you have regarding animal management or any of the specific situations / individuals involved.

View attachment 566760

And let us not forget the Hari incident

The @The Hedgehog said

"@Indlovu it is very irresponsible for any holders of Elephants to allow them to interbreed. As your probably aware inbreeding normally results in physical or mental disabilities. Inbreeding pollutes the captive Elephant gene pool. Imagine if your Child or another family member had a baby with someone within your family,I bet you would find it disgusting. If you think incest within humans is obscene how is it different for Elephants or any other species."
"In a way I think it is a blessing that Hari died of EEHV when he did. Eventually he would have become a breeding Bull and dirtied the Asian Elephant breeding program further. By the way @Indlovu Hari wasn’t thought to have been the result of a Father Daughter mating he was the result of a Father Daughter mating.Had Hari had survived to adulthood he would most probably have had a shortened lifespan due to his parents being Father and Daughter."

 

[The Hedgehog]

@Zia I am currently very embarrassed. I’ve read the examples that you and others have supplied me. I cannot believe I have made such bold,brutal and incorrect statements. I must confess I didn’t think I was this bad. I must come across as a ***** to all you fellow Zoochatters. My mild learning disabilities didn’t help the situation. I’ll be the first to admit that I should think before I type.

 

[Zoofan15]

@Zia I am currently very embarrassed. I’ve read the examples that you and others have supplied me. I cannot believe I have made such bold,brutal and incorrect statements. I must confess I didn’t think I was this bad. I must come across as a ***** to all you fellow Zoochatters. My mild learning disabilities didn’t help the situation. I’ll be the first to admit that I should think before I type.

The best form of apology is a change of behaviour.

Every one makes mistakes and you've acknowledged yours. Let's all move on to discussions which are both constructive and respectful.

 

[Mr.Ivory]

The best form of apology is a change of behaviour.

Every one makes mistakes and you've acknowledged yours. Let's all move on to discussions which are both constructive and respectful.

Couldn't have said it better myself

 

[The Hedgehog]

I apologise for any upset I may have caused. I do accidentally let the occasional inappropriate comment slip. Due to my learning disabilities I cannot guarantee it won’t happen again.Going forward I’ll read each post a few times before posting it. If I am incentive/factually wrong in the future I apologise. What I can guarantee 100% is that these situations will be dramatically decreased if not existent.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Here are a few more examples where you have posted inflammatory, incorrect, and damaging comments.

Note that these are merely the ones where the moderator team did not have cause to delete the comments entirely. too.

What I can guarantee 100% is that these situations will be dramatically decreased if not existent.

This is neither the first time that we have had this conversation - see, for instance, the conversation @Zia cited above - nor the first time you have made guarantees of this nature; only a fortnight ago I had cause to counsel you to be more cautious about the harmful speculation you regularly post, and that zoological collections could easily work out who was posting this speculation despite your forum pseudonym given the amount of personally-identifying information you have let slip over the years.

When compelled to post, stand back awhile and consider whether your input is appropriate, on-topic or mature before hitting the "submit" button

 

[rjh]

Seen yesterday on sign outside the Elephant House and today on the Whipsnade website under animals / elephants:

Our Centre for Elephant Care is currently closed. A baby elephant has been born and keepers are allowing the herd some quiet time to meet the new calf. Please come and visit us again soon to see the new addition to the family.

 

[Rosie183]

Seen yesterday on sign outside the Elephant House and today on the Whipsnade website under animals / elephants:

Our Centre for Elephant Care is currently closed. A baby elephant has been born and keepers are allowing the herd some quiet time to meet the new calf. Please come and visit us again soon to see the new addition to the family.

did you see any of the herd? I hope all is ok with the newborn..

 

[ajmcwhipsnade]

Seen yesterday on sign outside the Elephant House and today on the Whipsnade website under animals / elephants:

Our Centre for Elephant Care is currently closed. A baby elephant has been born and keepers are allowing the herd some quiet time to meet the new calf. Please come and visit us again soon to see the new addition to the family.

fantastic news

 

[Embu]

Seen yesterday on sign outside the Elephant House and today on the Whipsnade website under animals / elephants:

Our Centre for Elephant Care is currently closed. A baby elephant has been born and keepers are allowing the herd some quiet time to meet the new calf. Please come and visit us again soon to see the new addition to the family.

did you see any of the herd? I hope all is ok with the newborn..

Reading the ZSL announcement I don't think there's potentially anything to worry about(I could be wrong). These first few days are critical to establish bonds and the other things to remember are;
*We(and the keepers) don't know how Donna would react(her only other pregnancy ended in the calf dying shortly after birth I believe).
*There's no inclination of whether Donna is feeding the calf or whether it's been rejected.
*We don't know if there were complications during birth that means mum and baby need longer to recover.

All the above are situations could be far fetched conclusions but I'm sure we will get updates and pictures soon enough