ZSL London Zoo London Zoo discussion thread

Any movement of archive materials poses the potential to cause damage; it's always best to leave them in place.

Also, climate-control for archival materials is very different to climate-control for living reptiles; current recommendations are a steady temperature of 16C (or lower where possible), steady relative humidity (the lower the better), preferably with sealed doors to keep these both stable. What I'm hearing from your suggestions @oca2073 is that archival materials are not of much importance and can just be moved around for no real benefit.

The ZSL online archive catalogue is here: ZSL Library and Archives online catalogues | ZSL

A first look, using 'Raffles' as a search term, shows that a lot of items are listed, but have not yet been photographed, which is (from experience at similar institutions) a long-term and costly project requiring a specific skill-set; it can't be rushed.
 
Rajang21 said:
Can they all be accessed electronically? Even if they are, moving the archive would then seem pointless as surely these old, fragile books and documents are better preserved in their current location, rather than in a building designed to keep tropical reptiles warm.
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I believe the climatic controls of the reptile house can accommodate cold and dry settings as well (suitable for say the giant salamander), although I'm sure technical adjustments/upgrades/replacements can be made if necessary. If the Reptile House is to be a museum, it will need a complete climate overhaul anyways.
 
oca2073 said:
I believe the climatic controls of the reptile house can accommodate cold and dry settings as well (suitable for say the giant salamander), although I'm sure technical adjustments/upgrades/replacements can be made if necessary. If the Reptile House is to be a museum, it will need a complete climate overhaul anyways.
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Really, only the individual enclosures would require fitting out as museum-standard displays, which is a project that can be undertaken by specialist museum display-case companies. In that case, the rest of the building (which we've heard, is not big enough to house the entirety of the archival holdings) would not need retrofitting to a purpose it was not designed for.
 
Crowthorne said:
Many movement of archive materials poses the potential to cause damage; it's always best to leave them in place.

Also, climate-control for archival materials is very different to climate-control for living reptiles; current recommendations are a steady temperature of 16C (or lower where possible), steady relative humidity (the lower the better), preferably with sealed doors to keep these both stable. What I'm hearing from your suggestions @oca2073 is that archival materials are not of much importance and can just be moved around for no real benefit.

The ZSL online archive catalogue is here: ZSL Library and Archives online catalogues | ZSL

A first look, using 'Raffles' as a search term, shows that a lot of items are listed, but have not yet been photographed, which is (from experience at similar institutions) a long-term and costly project requiring a specific skill-set; it can't be rushed.
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My experience is that the more relevant documents will have been electronically archived while the unimportant ones won't have been but I already noted how the research department isn't even currently located next to the archives which shows their relative unimportance.

As for climate-control, the whole building will need an overhaul anyways if it is to be a museum. The Reptile House does keep cold species such as the giant salamander which prefers 20 degrees and will die at temperates above 30-35.
 
oca2073 said:
My experience is that the more relevant documents will have been electronically archived while the unimportant ones won't have been but I already noted how the research department isn't even currently located next to the archives which shows their relative unimportance.

As for climate-control, the whole building will need an overhaul anyways if it is to be a museum. The Reptile House does keep cold species such as the giant salamander which prefers 20 degrees and will die at temperates above 30-35.
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I don’t think you’re willing to hear things that don’t fit your opinion.
 
Crowthorne said:
Really, only the individual enclosures would require fitting out as museum-standard displays, which is a project that can be undertaken by specialist museum display-case companies. In that case, the rest of the building (which we've heard, is not big enough to house the entirety of the archival holdings) would not need retrofitting to a purpose it was not designed for.
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So the entire service area is just to be closed off and completely unused? You will upgrade the climate settings for JUST the exhibits, but the right next door service area will be left untouched even though it could be used to house the archives with the proper climate settings?
 
Rajang21 said:
You are being informed by someone who is trained in this field that your idea won’t work, and you are ignoring them and seem to think you know better.
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Is is impossible to upgrade the climate settings of the Reptile House to store archives and why not? I already noted how the Reptile House is going to store fragile artefacts in the exhibits already (through upgrades presumably) so why can't the building also hold archives?

If the archives are critical for research and regularly perused by researchers, why is the research building located at the other end of the zoo? How are the archives less accessible from the Reptile House compared to its current location to researchers?

Please answer these questions directly and don't start discussing other points in an attempt to change the topic. I don't care for your argument by authority fallacy either.
 
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Crowthorne said:
In that case, the rest of the building (which we've heard, is not big enough to house the entirety of the archival holdings) would not need retrofitting to a purpose it was not designed for.
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I'll also note the Reptile House appears on the face of it to be 3 times larger in surface area than the current archives building and the current archives building probably wasn't "purpose-built" for the role either originally but subsequently retrofitted.
 
oca2073 said:
My experience is that the more relevant documents will have been electronically archived while the unimportant ones won't have been but I already noted how the research department isn't even currently located next to the archives which shows their relative unimportance.
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Even if documents have been electronically copied, there is always still a requirement to house the originals appropriately; if anything, long-term storage of electronic versions are *more* difficult than paper storage, when taking into account things like bit-rot and technological advancements making files unreadable or unsuitable - compare early digital photography/scanning with the resolutions available now. Digitisation isn't a one-off, it is an on-going process. Deciding what is and isn't 'relevant' is a value judgement, what might be relevant today might be different in a decade; it would also change depending on current research projects.

oca2073 said:
I'll also note the Reptile House appears on the face of it to be 3 times larger in surface area than the current archives building and the current archives building probably wasn't "purpose-built" for the role either originally but subsequently retrofitted.
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Floor-space isn't the best measure of space here - is there room for shelving? Is there room for laying out items for research/conservation? Are we housing items with differing conservation requirements - paper, photographs, models, taxidermy even? The three-times-bigger comment, is this the whole of the Reptile House floorplan, or is that just the off-show/staff areas? It's not as simple as saying the old Reptile House has x-amount floor space compared with the archive building.
 
oca2073 said:
Is is impossible to upgrade the climate settings of the Reptile House to store archives and why not? I already noted how the Reptile House is going to store fragile artefacts in the exhibits already (through upgrades presumably) so why can't the building also hold archives?

If the archives are critical for research and regularly perused by researchers, why is the research building located at the other end of the zoo? How are the archives less accessible from the Reptile House compared to its current location to researchers?

Please answer these questions directly and don't start discussing other points in an attempt to change the topic. I don't care for your argument by authority fallacy either.
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What is the benefit of this change you propose for the zoo, animals or visitors?

You didn't answer the question I posed directly earlier in the thread, asking for your evidence that ZSL doesn't want London to be 'too excellent' in case it hurts visitor numbers at Whipsnade. Why is this the case? What is the definition of 'too excellent' (ie what plans for animals and visitors are not in place / have been cancelled due to this strategy) and what evidence is there?

Your statement about 'authority fallacy' is also a bit concerning. I know we live in an era where people think they can do brain surgery because they own a drill and 'no one can trust an expert' but it is a little strange to disregard expertise simply because it is something you don't have or it contradicts your opinion.
 
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Lafone said:
Your statement about 'authority fallacy' is also a bit concerning. I know we live in an era where people think they can do brain surgery because they own a drill and 'no one can trust an expert' but it is a little strange to disregard expertise simply because it is something you don't have or it contradicts your opinion.
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See also the fact that, despite demanding that people "answer these questions directly and don't start discussing other points in an attempt to change the topic" they have previously entirely avoided answering people's questions - along with the one you highlighted they have also been asked whether they have seen/visited the archives in question themselves, whether they work for ZSL or have experience in museum/archival studies, and indeed whether they are relying on maps and photographs alone rather than any personal experience.... so in other words they have themselves started "discussing other points in an attempt to change the topic" :p

As for the point raised earlier in the thread, when the argument was made that no one would ever visit a zoo for an onsite museum... I did precisely that when I visited Dvur Kralove Zoo in 2019 largely on the basis it contains a sizeable gallery of old Zdenek Burian artwork!
 
I haven't been to the ZSL archive personally, but looking at the building from the outside, the lack of windows on the ground floor seem to be a design feature (ie, there aren't spaces where windows have been filled in retrospectively), that indicate to me that this was purpose-built for archival storage (no natural light, secure etc). It is probably safe to assume that the archive building was constructed because there wasn't space for the archive in the existing spaces in the library/research building and/or that the spaces that were there weren't suitable for long-term archival storage; that's the thing about archives, they keep growing and expanding. Eventually the archive will undoubtably outgrow the available space in the current building, and it's current location next to the library/research building, but out of the way of the main public areas, would allow for some expansion when necessary.

The archives at Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, are probably the most similar here. Like ZSL, their library/archive/research buildings are at the far edge of the Gardens, next to the River Thames. They're accessible by being next to the main site, but not directly on-site, which allows for slightly easier expansion to the buildings when necessary (approximately every 20 years, the building requires an addition, which is about average for an archive)

Also, just because a building is 'unremarkable' doesn't mean it doesn't serve it's purpose.
 
Side note but it always makes me laugh with sadness how much space Kew has, compared to the zoo. Imagine what ZSL could do with a bronx sized space in the city!
 
oca2073 said:
I'll also note the Reptile House appears on the face of it to be 3 times larger in surface area than the current archives building and the current archives building probably wasn't "purpose-built" for the role either originally but subsequently retrofitted.
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There are only 3 paid staff members in the ZSL Library. This includes the archivist. It would cost a fortune to move the archives into the Reptile House. The archivist works with the 2 librarians in the library. Would you expect her to work by herself in the old Reptile House? Moving between the ZSL library and the current archives is far easier than between the old Reptile House and the library. I can't really see any advantage in ,moving the archives.
 
Crowthorne said:
.....The existing building, as far as I know, is outside the zoo boundary, and hasn't ever been used for animals ( @Tim May is that correct?).
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The ZSL Library is housed within the main ZSL office building (which is situated on the edge of the zoo on the Outer Circle of Regent's Park). This building, which dates from 1909/1910, has never been used as an animal house.
 
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Lets throw the cat among the pigeons here! The last version of the new master plan I saw for London Zoo had the main office being turn into a.... boutique hotel. Taking advantage of the "historical features for a unique hotel stay in London" and to use to generate revenue for ZSL. Of course like all masterplans elements may or may not happen, but it was certainly the vision.
 
LucasRyan said:
Lets throw the cat among the pigeons here! The last version of the new master plan I saw for London Zoo had the main office being turn into a.... boutique hotel. Taking advantage of the "historical features for a unique hotel stay in London" and to use to generate revenue for ZSL. Of course like all masterplans elements may or may not happen, but it was certainly the vision.
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Interesting! Do you have a link to this master plan?
 
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