North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Bodhi MUST breed!!! He is the only suriving offspring of his wildborn father and of he doesnt breed, Coco‘s genes are lost. I dont think the Asian elephant population in North America can afford that.

He already has one daughter in Houston sired via AI. Coco is very valuable but Phoebe is not at all, the Motek/Warda line is in clear domination of the future of AZA zoo breeding programs with 15 ssp individuals (I am not counting George or Gigi) already so Im not sure how wise it would be to put Bodhi in a position to have a surplus of calves. I definitely think him siring a few more calves wouldn't be a bad idea at all, but him being moved to White Oak, or ANY breeding facility as a main bull, would be a mistake imo.

 

[ZCChip]

We will see line breeding at some point. I am sure even second or third cousins are breeding in the wild. Happens all the time with other species.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

We will see line breeding at some point. I am sure even second or third cousins are breeding in the wild. Happens all the time with other species.

But we currently are in a position where there are enough valuable bulls to prevent the need for this. Obviously down the road the line "inbreeding" will have to occur unless there are some serious shifts in the population, but why risk the stability of our current NA population by overbreeding an overrepresented bull when there are a handful of completly underutilized bulls and much more valuable other young bulls around NA as a whole?
Bodhi going on to sire a few more calves with Tupelo (or even Tess later on) via AI/being transported to Houston would be an ideal situation for spreading on Coco's genetics. Tupelo's line is very valuable, and any calves of hers (even male) are pretty much guaranteed to stick around the facility for several years.

 

[Jambo]

Bodhi MUST breed!!! He is the only suriving offspring of his wildborn father and of he doesnt breed, Coco‘s genes are lost. I dont think the Asian elephant population in North America can afford that.

Absolutely, Bohdi is and should be one of the high priority males to breed from at the moment. To add to this, Bohdi is way more valuable than some of the other bulls we have within the regional population so I imagine he'll almost certainly move into a breeding situation eventually rather than being kept at Denver.

He already has one daughter in Houston sired via AI. Coco is very valuable but Phoebe is not at all, the Motek/Warda line is in clear domination of the future of AZA zoo breeding programs with 15 ssp individuals (I am not counting George or Gigi) already so Im not sure how wise it would be to put Bodhi in a position to have a surplus of calves. I definitely think him siring a few more calves wouldn't be a bad idea at all, but him being moved to White Oak, or ANY breeding facility as a main bull, would be a mistake imo.

It's also crucial to remember a lot of the Motek/Warda descendants will be in non breeding situations.

Phoebe's line: Phoebe herself will probably be breed from again; but Bohdi will probably be her only breeding offspring. George is castrated, and Frankie will probably end up in a bachelor facility. Only a further daughter from Phoebe could guarantee any sort of future breeding from her line, besides Bohdi.

Alexander's line: Piccolina's non reproductive now and Billy at Denver will also likely remain there as a non breeding bull long term. With the new additions to the regional population, we can expect Trong Nhi and Nhi Linh at the National Zoo and Anak at Cincinnati to breed. I doubt we'll see breeding from Anak's son Sanjay though. His brother, Kabir, is MUCH more valuable not coming from the Motek/Warda line.

Lily's line: Lily herself will probably continue breeding. Her eldest daughter is non reproductive as previously mentioned. Her son Albert is in a breeding situation at ABQ but he doesn't have any surviving descendants. Obviously there's a chance he'll continue breeding. It's not known whether Lily's three youngest daughters will be breeding at ALS. I assume at least one will to continue her matriline but it remains to be seen what direction ALS go in there.

So in total we only seven breeding descendants of that line that WILL be breeding; Phoebe, Lily, Bohdi, Albert plus the three new additions from Europe Trong Nhi, Nhi Linh and Anak.

 

[Jambo]

But we currently are in a position where there are enough valuable bulls to prevent the need for this. Obviously down the road the line "inbreeding" will have to occur unless there are some serious shifts in the population, but why risk the stability of our current NA population by overbreeding an overrepresented bull when there are a handful of completly underutilized bulls and much more valuable other young bulls around NA as a whole?
Bodhi going on to sire a few more calves with Tupelo (or even Tess later on) via AI/being transported to Houston would be an ideal situation for spreading on Coco's genetics. Tupelo's line is very valuable, and any calves of hers (even male) are pretty much guaranteed to stick around the facility for several years.

Which 'valuable bulls' are you referring too here? I can only name a few at best.

It's also important to remember that AI is a costly procedure and zoos would be wanting to avoid it if they can. I assume the conception of little Winnie was mainly to buy time for Houston who are probably waiting for Thai to pass before acquiring a new bull. He is currently 58 years of age, and breeding Tupelo in the meantime was the best idea.

Speaking of Houston, Thai's death would also be the perfect time to split the herd before a new bull is acquired. Sending away Shanti/Joy is probably the best option, leaving Houston with Methai + Tess's line (with Tupelo, Tilly and Winnie breeding).

 

[ZCChip]

But we currently are in a position where there are enough valuable bulls to prevent the need for this. Obviously down the road the line "inbreeding" will have to occur unless there are some serious shifts in the population, but why risk the stability of our current NA population by overbreeding an overrepresented bull when there are a handful of completly underutilized bulls and much more valuable other young bulls around NA as a whole?
Bodhi going on to sire a few more calves with Tupelo (or even Tess later on) via AI/being transported to Houston would be an ideal situation for spreading on Coco's genetics. Tupelo's line is very valuable, and any calves of hers (even male) are pretty much guaranteed to stick around the facility for several years.

I totally agree with this. I should state that my earlier comment is based on observation not my opinion. But yes you are bulls eye on the current situation. Unfortunately there are certain egos involved such as Billy at LA zoo and the females at the St Louis that are daughters of the bull there when they are wanting to hold on to him?

It is a precarious situation.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

It's not known whether Lily's three youngest daughters will be breeding at ALS. I assume at least one will to continue her matriline but it remains to be seen what direction ALS go in there

Since ALS supposedly had plans to bring in a European bull before covid, it wouldn't surprise me that within the next few years or so we get some answers on whether they plan on continuing their breeding program with their younger girls. They still proudly show their herd on social media and aside from the 2019 elephant ride injury they don't really receive much negative press. I would assume we'll see Lily's three youngest daughters in a breeding situation somehow, and I wouldn't write off another calf for herself either.

Im not very familiar with Trong Nhi's reproductive history nor her daughter's, but given the fact both cows are young and in their prime I assume we'll see numerous calves from them both. Anak is very much proven and she too likely will have several calves. Not to mention Bodhi's daughter Winnie, who will all but certianly be a part of Houston's breeding program and could even have a calf by the beginning of the 2030's.
The issue with numbers isn't how many individuals there are in the line, its how many we have/will most likely have in breeding situations going forward. I don't think it's wise to discount ALS, or Anak, Trong Nhi and Nhi Lin's breeding potential.

Which 'valuable bulls' are you referring too here? I can only name a few at best.

Any of Houston's young bulls, Billy in LA, Raja, Ongard, even Kabir in a few years would be more valuable options for a long-term breeding bull situation at a large facility such as White Oak than Bodhi.

Speaking of Houston, Thai's death would also be the perfect time to split the herd before a new bull is acquired. Sending away Shanti/Joy is probably the best option, leaving Houston with Methai + Tess's line (with Tupelo, Tilly and Winnie breeding).

100% agree with this. Houston really needs to split their herd if they wish to continue their program long-term, but I understand why that wouldn't be a priority when Thai is still alive, well and actively breeding.
I can see Houston keeping either line to be honest! Joy has a breeding reccomendation with Tucker, a bull who has witnessed natural breeding and is very valuable himself, and perhaps with establishing her as a breeding cow going forward Houston could "start" a new matriatchal line with her and her calves. On the other hand, Tupelo, Tilly and Winnie obviously have more going for them "herd"-wise. All females will likely have multiple calves when housed with a proven bull plus they would be a perfect multi-generational herd to work with going forward.
If Bodhi had to go to any breeding facility, I think Houston would be the best candidate. He already has bred a healthy calf with Tupelo (albiet via AI). He could have a few more calves with Tupelo, a few with Tilly and he could serve as a mentor to bachelor males. Houston has had a wonderful history of really sustainable birthing intervals, so Bodhi would likely only have a small handful of calves, but still passing on his valuable wild genes to a valuable herd. Any of his offspring at Houston would have more valuable blood than mostly anywhere else.

That is, as also have to keep in mind that we have no indication that Bodhi can breed females naturally. As far as I know he was seperated from Phoebe before Beco was conceived so we have no idea if he's witnessed natural breeding. He's been without a female for over half his life now so I wouldn't exactly call the odds in his favor. At the very least he's AI proven, not ideal but something.

 

[Jambo]

Im not very familiar with Trong Nhi's reproductive history nor her daughter's, but given the fact both cows are young and in their prime I assume we'll see numerous calves from them both. Anak is very much proven and she too likely will have several calves. Not to mention Bodhi's daughter Winnie, who will all but certianly be a part of Houston's breeding program and could even have a calf by the beginning of the 2030's.
The issue with numbers isn't how many individuals there are in the line, its how many we have/will most likely have in breeding situations going forward. I don't think it's wise to discount ALS, or Anak, Trong Nhi and Nhi Lin's breeding potential

Nhi Linh is Trong Nhi's only calf, and she was born a decade ago now so hopefully Trong Nhi has conceived already to Spike. Nhi Linh is of the perfect age to conceive too so I imagine we'll see her conceiving soon too, if she hasn't already. Smithsonian should/could hopefully see two calves born around the same time!

100% agree with this. Houston really needs to split their herd if they wish to continue their program long-term, but I understand why that wouldn't be a priority when Thai is still alive, well and actively breeding.
I can see Houston keeping either line to be honest! Joy has a breeding reccomendation with Tucker, a bull who has witnessed natural breeding and is very valuable himself, and perhaps with establishing her as a breeding cow going forward Houston could "start" a new matriatchal line with her and her calves. On the other hand, Tupelo, Tilly and Winnie obviously have more going for them "herd"-wise. All females will likely have multiple calves when housed with a proven bull plus they would be a perfect multi-generational herd to work with going forward.
If Bodhi had to go to any breeding facility, I think Houston would be the best candidate. He already has bred a healthy calf with Tupelo (albiet via AI). He could have a few more calves with Tupelo, a few with Tilly and he could serve as a mentor to bachelor males. Houston has had a wonderful history of really sustainable birthing intervals, so Bodhi would likely only have a small handful of calves, but still passing on his valuable wild genes to a valuable herd. Any of his offspring at Houston would have more valuable blood than mostly anywhere else.

Splitting the herd now wouldn't be an option when you consider there's still some fairly young calves. If Houston elects to breed Shanti again soon (which is a chance if she isn't pregnant already), it'll just delay things further. At this point Thai has seven surviving offspring so I also wouldn't be surprised if they decide to retire him if they haven't already.

If that is the case and there's no breeding at Houston within the next few years; Houston will be in the right position to make big changes in three or four years time. By that time the youngest elephants within the herd (Teddy and Winnie) will be at least five years of age. Teddy and Nelson will be of age to begin transferring out of the herd; and Houston will be left with seven females plus Tucker (assuming Thai has passed). Houston could easily use Tucker as their breeding bull going forward; and send Tess's family of four to another facility and breeding from Shanti and Joy going forward. That's an option. Or if they want to retain Tess's larger family herd, they could send Shanti and Joy away. That would just mean Tucker wouldn't be an active participant in the breeding program at Houston (unless its through AI).

Bohdi wouldn't really be an option for Houston if Tess's family remain. He's the father of Winnie, so unless she remains as a non breeding female (which I doubt), it would be more sustainable for him to be sent to breed at another facility. Swapping him for Raja at Saint Louis is a better option imo!

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

Unfortunately there are certain egos involved such as Billy at LA zoo and the females at the St Louis that are daughters of the bull there when they are wanting to hold on to him?

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but what is up with Raja and St. Louis Zoo???

I keep hearing that St. Louis is strongly attached to Raja, which is why they refuse to transfer him despite him apparently having multiple breeding recommendations. But why is St. Louis all that attached to him in the first place?

Was he the first calf born there or something? A "miracle" baby who wasn't expected to survive, yet he beat the odds and thrived instead? Does he have a particularly charismatic personality that has endeared him to zoo staff and visitors alike?

Just... why on earth would St. Louis opt to keep him on indefinitely when they have three daughters of his to continue his "family line" if that's important to them???

 

[Jambo]

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but what is up with Raja and St. Louis Zoo???

I keep hearing that St. Louis is strongly attached to Raja, which is why they refuse to transfer him despite him apparently having multiple breeding recommendations. But why is St. Louis all that attached to him in the first place?

Was he the first calf born there or something? A "miracle" baby who wasn't expected to survive, yet he beat the odds and thrived instead? Does he have a particularly charismatic personality that has endeared him to zoo staff and visitors alike?

Just... why on earth would St. Louis opt to keep him on indefinitely when they have three daughters of his to continue his "family line" if that's important to them???

He was the first calf born at Saint Louis back in 1992.

They throw birthday celebrations for him every year so it appears he's a beloved elephant within the Saint Louis community.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Nhi Linh is Trong Nhi's only calf, and she was born a decade ago now so hopefully Trong Nhi has conceived already to Spike. Nhi Linh is of the perfect age to conceive too so I imagine we'll see her conceiving soon too, if she hasn't already. Smithsonian should/could hopefully see two calves born around the same time!

Splitting the herd now wouldn't be an option when you consider there's still some fairly young calves. If Houston elects to breed Shanti again soon (which is a chance if she isn't pregnant already), it'll just delay things further. At this point Thai has seven surviving offspring so I also wouldn't be surprised if they decide to retire him if they haven't already.

If that is the case and there's no breeding at Houston within the next few years; Houston will be in the right position to make big changes in three or four years time. By that time the youngest elephants within the herd (Teddy and Winnie) will be at least five years of age. Teddy and Nelson will be of age to begin transferring out of the herd; and Houston will be left with seven females plus Tucker (assuming Thai has passed). Houston could easily use Tucker as their breeding bull going forward; and send Tess's family of four to another facility and breeding from Shanti and Joy going forward. That's an option. Or if they want to retain Tess's larger family herd, they could send Shanti and Joy away. That would just mean Tucker wouldn't be an active participant in the breeding program at Houston (unless its through AI).

Bohdi wouldn't really be an option for Houston if Tess's family remain. He's the father of Winnie, so unless she remains as a non breeding female (which I doubt), it would be more sustainable for him to be sent to breed at another facility. Swapping him for Raja at Saint Louis is a better option imo!

I think it would be very beneficial for NA's genetic diversity to make sure at least a couple of Thai's sons end up in long term breeding situations. They are far too valuable to let go to waste, especially since they all (minus maybe Teddy) have witnessed natural breeding and are quite a few are within a few years of being of prime age to be sent to breeding facilities.

Back to Bodhi, while yes he wouldn't be able to breed with Winnie, him spending a few years on loan to Houston would possibly secure his wildborn genes being passed on a few more times. He would obviously have to be kept seperate from Winnie, but they've successfully kept Tupelo seperate from Thai for years so it wouldn't be like they don't have the ability. If Houston wanted to keep him, he could be a valuable older bull to help mentor young bulls such as Teddy and Nelson before they make their own moves. Either way he needs to move out of Denver soon to make room for more bulls there anyway.
Raja would be perfect as well! Tucker or Baylor would be perfect for Saint Louis too, they're right in line with the three girls' ages!

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

He was the first calf born at Saint Louis back in 1992.

They throw birthday celebrations for him every year so it appears he's a beloved elephant within the Saint Louis community.

Good lord, is that seriously what it comes down to?!?

I can certainly understand a city having pride in their "firstborn son"... to an extent. But St. Louis sounds like it's being absolutely ridiculous when it comes to Raja IMHO. Surely the zoo PR team can spin any potential transfer as being a good thing for him?!? At another zoo, he can sire more calves and show off his supposed wonderfulness to a league of new fans, lol.

Barring that, why not just transfer out his three daughters? While that would be quite a loss for St. Louis's herd to have to go through, any PR team worth their salt could spin it as the girls "growing up and moving on the next big stage of their lives: motherhood."

Moving Maliha, Jade & Priya on wouldn't even put St. Louis out of compliance with the AZA's rules about elephant social group size! Even if you count Raja, there would still be three other elephants in residence. Granted, I see that one of them is Raja's mother, but hopefully at 52 years old, she's post-reproductive and thus could be safely placed in a social situation with her own son. [The PR team would probably have a tough time putting a happy spin on an incest baby, lol.]

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

He was the first calf born at Saint Louis back in 1992.

They throw birthday celebrations for him every year so it appears he's a beloved elephant within the Saint Louis community.

Ugh, that's hardly an excuse. Numerous zoos have sent out their "first calf" with little grief. At this point Saint Louis is being just downright irresponsible. They clearly have no plans to bring in a new bull or move Raja out, it is beyond unfathomable to me how they can value a single bull over their breeding program.
Its obviously not great that Saint Louis lost two elephants within a couple months this year, but hopefully it will slap them out of whatever crazy mindset they're currently working with.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Good lord, is that seriously what it comes down to?!?

I can certainly understand a city having pride in their "firstborn son"... to an extent. But St. Louis sounds like it's being absolutely ridiculous when it comes to Raja IMHO. Surely the zoo PR team can spin any potential transfer as being a good thing for him?!? At another zoo, he can sire more calves and show off his supposed wonderfulness to a league of new fans, lol.

Barring that, why not just transfer out his three daughters? While that would be quite a loss for St. Louis's herd to have to go through, any PR team worth their salt could spin it as the girls "growing up and moving on the next big stage of their lives: motherhood."

Moving Maliha, Jade & Priya on wouldn't even put St. Louis out of compliance with the AZA's rules about elephant social group size! Even if you count Raja, there would still be three other elephants in residence. Granted, I see that one of them is Raja's mother, but hopefully at 52 years old, she's post-reproductive and thus could be safely placed in a social situation with her own son. [The PR team would probably have a tough time putting a happy spin on an incest baby, lol.]

At this point, I can think of several zoos that would be open to accepting three young females in the prime of their reproductive window. Yet, it certianly wouldn't be ideal given that a transfer of the girls would involve splitting a multigenerational herd apart. But I feel the zoo would sooner send the girls away (and the future of their breeding program away with it...) than send Raja away (even though he is useless to their breeding program).

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

Yet, it certianly wouldn't be ideal given that a transfer of the girls would involve splitting a multigenerational herd apart.

Ugh, I can already see PETA's spin on that. "Cruel zoo officials favor making more big buck baby elephants than keeping a loving, supportive family together!"

If anything, possible repercussions like that should make trading Raja for a new, non-related bull all the more appealing from a PR prospective. Bull elephants don't spend their lives in a single herd, let alone their natal herd! Yet that's exactly what Raja's situation is as it stands. If Animal Rights Activists throw a fit about transferring Raja, it would be much easier to rebuff them by pointing out that Raja "leaving his family" is exactly what he would be doing in the wild anyway.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Ugh, I can already see PETA's spin on that. "Cruel zoo officials favor making more big buck baby elephants than keeping a loving, supportive family together!"

If anything, possible repercussions like that should make trading Raja for a new, non-related bull all the more appealing from a PR prospective. Bull elephants don't spend their lives in a single herd, let alone their natal herd! Yet that's exactly what Raja's situation is as it stands. If Animal Rights Activists throw a fit about transferring Raja, it would be much easier to rebuff them by pointing out that Raja "leaving his family" is exactly what he would be doing in the wild anyway.

I doubt they'd throw a hissy fit about Raja being transferred, given that these "activists" tend to usually know basic elephant facts (with how much they whine about zoos not mimicking "natural" conditions well enough) so him leaving likely would only draw complaints from his fans lol.
The girls though...ugh PETA and similar groups would have a field day. But while it would be not...a wonderful move in terms of herd dynamics, it may be a necessary one if St Louis refuses to send Raja out. They'd all have each other so its not as if they'd not alone. Its been done before relatively recently also! Rudy and Sunny in Columbus were moved away from their mother and they had no issues, plus I don't recall any negative publicity from it.

 

[Yazziel]

I doubt they'd throw a hissy fit about Raja being transferred, given that these "activists" tend to usually know basic elephant facts (with how much they whine about zoos not mimicking "natural" conditions well enough) so him leaving likely would only draw complaints from his fans lol.
The girls though...ugh PETA and similar groups would have a field day. But while it would be not...a wonderful move in terms of herd dynamics, it may be a necessary one if St Louis refuses to send Raja out. They'd all have each other so its not as if they'd not alone. Its been done before relatively recently also! Rudy and Sunny in Columbus were moved away from their mother and they had no issues, plus I don't recall any negative publicity from it.

Oh activist have thrown a hissy fit before about a male being moved. Perfect example is Doc from the Rosamond Gifford Zoo. They landed on the IDA 10 worst zoo for elephants and one of the accusations was a rumor that Doc was going to be separated from his sons before they sadly passed away from EEHV. You never know with what they are going to throw in that list to fit their agenda it’s embarrassing.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Oh activist have thrown a hissy fit before about a male being moved. Perfect example is Doc from the Rosamond Gifford Zoo. They landed on the IDA 10 worst zoo for elephants and one of the accusations was a rumor that Doc was going to be separated from his sons before they sadly passed away from EEHV. You never know with what they are going to throw in that list to fit their agenda it’s embarrassing.

Oh?? My goodness thats ridiculous! If you ever run across that article link it back here, I'd love to see what their "reasoning" was lol. The IDA is a walking comedy act at this point -

 

[Yazziel]

Oh?? My goodness thats ridiculous! If you ever run across that article link it back here, I'd love to see what their "reasoning" was lol. The IDA is a walking comedy act at this point -

Here it is,
10 Worst Zoos for Elephants 2019

 

[Jambo]

I think it would be very beneficial for NA's genetic diversity to make sure at least a couple of Thai's sons end up in long term breeding situations. They are far too valuable to let go to waste, especially since they all (minus maybe Teddy) have witnessed natural breeding and are quite a few are within a few years of being of prime age to be sent to breeding facilities.

Back to Bodhi, while yes he wouldn't be able to breed with Winnie, him spending a few years on loan to Houston would possibly secure his wildborn genes being passed on a few more times. He would obviously have to be kept seperate from Winnie, but they've successfully kept Tupelo seperate from Thai for years so it wouldn't be like they don't have the ability. If Houston wanted to keep him, he could be a valuable older bull to help mentor young bulls such as Teddy and Nelson before they make their own moves. Either way he needs to move out of Denver soon to make room for more bulls there anyway.
Raja would be perfect as well! Tucker or Baylor would be perfect for Saint Louis too, they're right in line with the three girls' ages!

Imo the most realistic option for breeding out of Thai's sons is little Teddy who is far more valuable than any of Shanti's sons; he's a first generation bull from two wildborn parents! You could argue if any of Shanti's sons were to breed it would be Baylor (simply being the oldest and most socially experienced of her sons) but who knows. I can see a situation where neither Baylor, Duncan or Nelson end up breeding and Thai's line is continued through his son, Teddy and daughters, Tupelo, Joy, Tilly and granddaughter Winnie.

There's not many zoos at the moment who are in need of a new bull. Considering we do have three though that require some changes a three way swap might be best for the following zoos. Bohdi heads to Saint Louis to be paired with their three girls; Raja is sent to Houston to breed with either Tess's line or Shanti's; and Tucker is sent to Columbus to be the breeding bull there.

Another thought of mine - in the event Rudy and Sunny fail to conceive to Sabu, I don't see why a transfer of Tucker, Shanti, Joy and Nelson to Columbus won't work. Columbus will be able to get breeding females to continue their breeding program; Tucker already has a recommendation with Joy to breed, and he can breed with Shanti and Phoebe too. Young Nelson would be valuable companionship for Frankie too. A win win for both facilities.