North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

Re. Johnson, this move has been in the plans for YEARS now so nothing to do with the current state of things with Columbus’s population.

His breeding track record and the fact that ALS is at the point where they can afford to offload him makes him a perfect candidate for Columbus who wish to get calves (from Rudy and Sunny especially) asap. He’s also a PROVEN, recent breeder of which is something that Columbus is in desperate need of. I’m happy they’re taking what they can get at the moment rather than waiting for a perfect match which may never present!
 
Wisp O' Mist said:
Popular sire effect (AKA: Popular stud syndrome) is a prevalent problem facing the dog world right now, some breeds are so inbred that there's little hope of them continuing to be viable without bringing new genetics. Which, barring notable few breeds, is viewed as blasphemy to merely suggest.

The zoo world would do well to avoid that situation at all costs.
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While yes, zoo populations can have these issues (it's particularly possible in harem species where a small number of males breeds with most of the females), there is one big difference between zoo populations and dogs. Dog breeding oftentimes intentionally inbreeds as a form of artificial selection, that is to create dogs most in line with whatever the "breed standard" is. Yes, this causes all kinds of inbreeding depression problems including breathing problems in some breeds, hip dysplasia in others, etc.

However, zoo populations are not intentionally inbreeding for those purposes. While yes, there is artificial selection occurring in zoos (as the animals aren't free to mate at their own choice), it is not trait-oriented in the way dog breeding is, so popular sire effect *shouldn't* be as big a concern (in most populations). The bigger issues in zoo populations are normally a low founder base and/or poor reproductive success/high infant mortality. With Asian elephants, the biggest problem right now is of course the latter.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there not a current way to view the elephant exhibit except from a tiny portion of the Asian monorail? This would certianly have to be something updated if they choose to keep bachelors.
If they are able, you can never go wrong with more space when it comes to elephants, ESPECIALLY with the Happy situation dragging down Bronx's elephant care image.
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I haven’t been to Bronx in several years. I need to go back. Ha.

but yes from what I remember the monorail is the only way to see the elephants, and other animals.

How much would it cost to run the monorail?

I don’t understand it either.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
The Asia Monorail is incredibly unique for sure and its one of my favorite zoo features that I've never seen, but if the zoo ever keeps elephants again then they need to make them viewable for more than 20 seconds.
It wouldn't be a simple feat, but elephants are a "big ticket" animal that visitors would flock to see, and I feel Bronx has it in them to pull off a walking exhibit to the complex.
The only reason that they haven't done that yet imo is obviously because their elephants are just bad publicity for them right now. Its better to keep them out of the public eye for the most part then to deal with an onslaught of "activists" coming to the exhibit every day. I don't think Ive seen a social media post about any of their elephants for years. Both girls are aging, so they know its only a matter of time before both pass away.
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The activists are already all over them. The zoo is definitely tired of them. I am tired of them. But I think they should tweak things to see if it works before they invest in improving the facilities for bulls.

just a thought.
 
Jambo said:
Re. Johnson, this move has been in the plans for YEARS now so nothing to do with the current state of things with Columbus’s population.

His breeding track record and the fact that ALS is at the point where they can afford to offload him makes him a perfect candidate for Columbus who wish to get calves (from Rudy and Sunny especially) asap. He’s also a PROVEN, recent breeder of which is something that Columbus is in desperate need of. I’m happy they’re taking what they can get at the moment rather than waiting for a perfect match which may never present!
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Should Sabu successfully breed the girls, or should Johnson get a round of calves out of them too, I see no reason why he needs to remain the primary breeding bull for years to come. If he and Sabu are able to jumpstart Columbus's breeding program, then he's served his purpose. Again, while his genes aren't overflowing in NA, he's not exactly valuable either. If he has calves with all the girls in Columbus, then he will have 10+ offspring (Gigi is absoloutly his calf. Iirc George was castrated long before Gigi was born). While most of those calves are in ALS, any sons of his (Onyx and potentially a few other ALS calves) will eventually disperse into the population. We do not need another Jackson situation as in the African Elephant population.

Columbus would be a perfect final breeding spot for him all things considered. While I doubt Frankie will ever be breeding with the popularity of his genes, socialization with Sabu has been evidently beneficial and continuing that with Johnson would prepare him for great integration into a bachelor herd at least.
But I just cannot see how allowing Johnson to potentially have nearly 20 calves in his lifetime is good for the population.

What Columbus needs right now to solidify Rudy and Sunny as breeders, and if they can have two calves each, with at least two of those being girls, with Johnson or better yet Sabu AND Johnson, then Columbus will have a solid foundation to work with. But when several bulls of much more value will be of age and potentially even proven in a decade or so, Johnson should be retired to a bachelor facility and Colombus should aquire a bull they can afford to be choosier about.
 
ZCChip said:
The activists are already all over them. The zoo is definitely tired of them. I am tired of them. But I think they should tweak things to see if it works before they invest in improving the facilities for bulls.

just a thought.
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Patty and Happy are both aging animals who likely have about a decade or less left in them. I would be severely surprised if Bronx would seek to improve their current facility in their lifetimes.

However, if they ever seek to keep elephants again, its obvious their current exhibit isn't exactly something to write home about. Having guests only see animals for about 30 seconds is already a questionable design in the first place (despite the fact that I still think the monorail is one of the most unique aspects of any zoo, and should definitely still remain), but having such an iconic species as elephants in that design is an awful choice.

If Happy and Patty were younger animals, and if Happy wasn't so controversial with the activists, I have no doubt Bronx would've invested in an improvement by now. As far as I know, they are the only zoo in NA to have an elephant exhibit such as theirs.
 
Ugh so much back and forth here, yikes!

As some others have mentioned, Johnson is indeed an excellent choice for Columbus, for a wide number of reasons. He's a super successful natural breeder, which Columbus NEEDS. He's totally unrelated to all of the Columbus cows, and any offspring from them sired by Hank OR Sabu. He throws primarily female calves. He's behaviourally damn near perfect (easy to work with, socially affable, good with calves, easy musths, etc), AND, this is kind of a odd way of viewing it, but considering Johnson, Phoebe, Rudy, and Sundara are all quite well represented, it's not "wasting" valuable genetics that could better be placed elsewhere (for instance, Yasmin is a much better genetic match for Sabu as opposed to the columbus girls).

Also for his relatives, just to correct on the ALS side, Emily currently has one surviving calve, a cow, sired by Johnson. Gigi died of herpes some years back.
 
Hyak_II said:
Johnson, Phoebe, Rudy, and Sundara are all quite well represented, it's not "wasting" valuable genetics that could better be placed elsewhere (for instance, Yasmin is a much better genetic match for Sabu as opposed to the columbus girls).
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With no living calves, any calves Sabu sires will be valuable to some degree. Rudy and Sunny's line is decently represented, but not nearly as much as, say, Phoebe's. We also have to keep in mind that ANY breeding cows, regardless of bloodline, are valuable in NA. Compared to Europe ane Asia, NA has relatively few active.

The way I see it, best case scenario Sabu has/will successfully impregnate Columbus' three girls, they have at least one or two cow calves between them and then Johnson can get a round of calves from at least Rudy and Sunny going forward (as Phoebe will likely be too old to have another calf after her next one). Sabu's blood is exactly what Columbus needs to ensure their herd retains some value going forward, so hopefully he's gotten the job done lol.

While I'm sure Johnson will boost Columbus' breeding output, and in everything other than blood he's a perfect candidate for Columbus (and dare I say a great backup plan for if Sabu fails to breed one of the younger girls), my frustration lies in the fact that there are a good handful of other bulls completely underutilized in NA currently while bulls like Johnson are allowed to keep breeding in excess. While maybe Columbus wouldn't be a fabulous first try for them (given how the clock is ticking with Rudy and Sunny), I don't see why they shouldn't be options once Johnson has bred no doubt a handful of calves in Columbus. Billy, Ongard, Raja, Sneezy, Tucker, Baylor, etc are all relatively valuable bulls with either past breeding experience or time spent around a successful bull themselves. This is excluding bulls that will be of age within a decade as well.

I know these transfers have a lot of work behind them and are typically years in the making (even just from Johnson's transfer documents as we can see that), but when valuable bulls are just sitting as company for aging cows when their genes could be utilized in multiple NA facilities, I can't help but feel like more needs to be done.
 
Jaxton said:
Do we have an official list of these individuals?
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This is the closet I could get to an accurate herd size basing off of videos and pictures

1.0 George (Calvin × Phoebe) 1999.10.21
1.0 Johnson (Calvin × Kitty) 2001.04.29
1.0 Onyx (Johnson × Opal) 2018.08.18
0.1 Jenny (WILD × WILD) 1967.00.00
0.1 Maggie (WILD × WILD) 1968.00.00
0.1 Lilly (Motek × Warda) 1985.01.31
0.1 Natasha (Tusko × Whimpy) 1994.02.27
0.1 Piccolo (Alexander × Lilly) 1994.12.11
0.1 Opal (Rex × Natasha) 2005.11.04
0.1 Emily (Rex × Kitty) 2006.04.23
0.1 Nellie (Johnson × Natasha) 2013.08.02
0.1 Hannah (Johnson × Lilly) 2014.10.19
0.1 Anna May (Johnson × Opal) 2015.05.04
0.1 Rose (Johnson × Natasha) 2016.02.28
0.1 Luna (Johnson × Lilly) 2018.08.17
0.1 Sunita (Johnson × Natasha) 2018.11.14
0.1 Imke (Johnson × Lilly) 2020.11.22
0.0.1 Calf (Johnson × Natasha) 2021
0.0.1 Calf (Johnson × Opal) 2021
0.1 Calf (Johnson x Emily) 2021
 
Jaxton said:
Do we have an official list of these individuals?
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Mr.Ivory said:
This is the closet I could get to an accurate herd size basing off of videos and pictures

1.0 George (Calvin × Phoebe) 1999.10.21
1.0 Johnson (Calvin × Kitty) 2001.04.29
1.0 Onyx (Johnson × Opal) 2018.08.18
0.1 Jenny (WILD × WILD) 1967.00.00
0.1 Maggie (WILD × WILD) 1968.00.00
0.1 Lilly (Motek × Warda) 1985.01.31
0.1 Natasha (Tusko × Whimpy) 1994.02.27
0.1 Piccolo (Alexander × Lilly) 1994.12.11
0.1 Opal (Rex × Natasha) 2005.11.04
0.1 Emily (Rex × Kitty) 2006.04.23
0.1 Nellie (Johnson × Natasha) 2013.08.02
0.1 Hannah (Johnson × Lilly) 2014.10.19
0.1 Anna May (Johnson × Opal) 2015.05.04
0.1 Rose (Johnson × Natasha) 2016.02.28
0.1 Luna (Johnson × Lilly) 2018.08.17
0.1 Sunita (Johnson × Natasha) 2018.11.14
0.1 Imke (Johnson × Lilly) 2020.11.22
0.0.1 Calf (Johnson × Natasha) 2021
0.0.1 Calf (Johnson × Opal) 2021
0.1 Calf (Johnson x Emily) 2021
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The seventeen listed on the elephant database and three additional calves that were born in 2021 and have yet to be announced formally by the park.

Thank you @Mr.Ivory for the list.:)
 
Mr.Ivory said:
This is the closet I could get to an accurate herd size basing off of videos and pictures

1.0 George (Calvin × Phoebe) 1999.10.21
1.0 Johnson (Calvin × Kitty) 2001.04.29
1.0 Onyx (Johnson × Opal) 2018.08.18
0.1 Jenny (WILD × WILD) 1967.00.00
0.1 Maggie (WILD × WILD) 1968.00.00
0.1 Lilly (Motek × Warda) 1985.01.31
0.1 Natasha (Tusko × Whimpy) 1994.02.27
0.1 Piccolo (Alexander × Lilly) 1994.12.11
0.1 Opal (Rex × Natasha) 2005.11.04
0.1 Emily (Rex × Kitty) 2006.04.23
0.1 Nellie (Johnson × Natasha) 2013.08.02
0.1 Hannah (Johnson × Lilly) 2014.10.19
0.1 Anna May (Johnson × Opal) 2015.05.04
0.1 Rose (Johnson × Natasha) 2016.02.28
0.1 Luna (Johnson × Lilly) 2018.08.17
0.1 Sunita (Johnson × Natasha) 2018.11.14
0.1 Imke (Johnson × Lilly) 2020.11.22
0.0.1 Calf (Johnson × Natasha) 2021
0.0.1 Calf (Johnson × Opal) 2021
0.1 Calf (Johnson x Emily) 2021
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And if I remember correctly, one of the calves is named Maya? What is the source for Emily's calf being female?
 
Jaxton said:
And if I remember correctly, one of the calves is named Maya? What is the source for Emily's calf being female?
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I recall reading one of the calves being named 'Maya' too; although I've tried to go back and look and didn't manage to find anything on here.

Hyak II mentioned in a post on the previous page that Emily currently has a single calf (a daughter) following Gigi's death. This would obviously be in reference to her latest offspring - born in 2021.;)
 
Jaxton said:
And if I remember correctly, one of the calves is named Maya?
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Jambo said:
I recall reading one of the calves being named 'Maya' too; although I've tried to go back and look and didn't manage to find anything on here.
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I posted about it in one of the other threads a couple months ago:
IndianRhino said:
Per the comment section on one of African Lion Safari's Instagram posts from a couple weeks ago, the park's youngest calf was born in April 2021 and is named "Maya" so it's likely a female calf. Unsure who the mother of the calf is but I'd assume the father is Johnson as always!
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