North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

From ALS's socials it appears there may have been a calf born earlier this year (unless they're posting photos from two years ago!).

Not sure who the mother is, but Hyak II mentioned in the population thread last year that Lily could potentially have a calf sometime this year.

I'll attach the photo below:
362928017_669108368590391_1076649148119401856_n.jpg
 
From ALS's socials it appears there may have been a calf born earlier this year (unless they're posting photos from two years ago!).

Not sure who the mother is, but Hyak II mentioned in the population thread last year that Lily could potentially have a calf sometime this year.

I'll attach the photo below:
362928017_669108368590391_1076649148119401856_n.jpg
The mother is indeed Lily and it would make sense for her to have a calf this year since Imke is around three years old
 
It looks like we have Lily (plus the calf), Piccolina and then Emily with an older calf at the back.

If this was an older photo from 2020 when Imke was a calf; Emily's calf at the time, Gigi would've been five and would've looked much larger than this calf appears (looks to be only a two year old).

In saying that there is a chance that she just happened to be with a calf that's not hers; but very intriguing nonetheless.
 
I agree. They had been on that IDA list a few times and that brings bad publicity. Plus didn’t Charlie gray announce retirement? Maybe the management is changing things.
Its always seemed odd to me that ALS gets such bad publicity. Aside from the elephant rides, which have been ended for a few years now, ALS offers one of the closest experiences to a wild herd dynamic that captive elephants can get.
Plenty of other facilities (of worse quality care might I add) have ended up on these lists multiple times and not stopped sharing their elephants.
It might just be something I'm not aware of, or just a peculiar management choice, but its just odd to me considering baby elephants are definitely a ticket winner (if you look at it from that way).

It could just be that Maya is the only calf right now, and given that she's the daughter of two half siblings ALS might feel inclined to publicize her less to keep that fact out of public eye. They got away with saying George was the father of Gigi but Im unsure they could pull that move again.
 
It could just be that Maya is the only calf right now, and given that she's the daughter of two half siblings ALS might feel inclined to publicize her less to keep that fact out of public eye. They got away with saying George was the father of Gigi but Im unsure they could pull that move again.

I'm more puzzled by the fact that ALS has a set of opposite sex half-siblings in it's elephant herd in the first place.

If their intention was to always have Johnson as their breeding bull, why did they keep Emily instead of offering her to another facility? Johnson's first calf was born in 2013, Emily would've seven years old at the time...

The perfect age to transfer her out of her natal herd and integrate her into a new one.

Emily also had Gigi when she was only eight years old (Well, eight years and ten months if I did the math right) and knowing how long elephants are pregnant for...

That means that Johnson (Assuming that he was the actual sire of Gigi) must've impregnated her basically as soon as she was capable of getting pregnant.

In light of that, this ALS's decision to keep Emily even stranger. You have a female Asian elephant on the cusp of sexual maturity, the only male elephant capable of siring calves in the herd is her maternal half brother. So you... keep her? Instead of exchanging her for an unrelated female? Or barring that, sell her?
 
I'm more puzzled by the fact that ALS has a set of opposite sex half-siblings in it's elephant herd in the first place.

If their intention was to always have Johnson as their breeding bull, why did they keep Emily instead of offering her to another facility? Johnson's first calf was born in 2013, Emily would've seven years old at the time...

The perfect age to transfer her out of her natal herd and integrate her into a new one.

Emily also had Gigi when she was only eight years old (Well, eight years and ten months if I did the math right) and knowing how long elephants are pregnant for...

That means that Johnson (Assuming that he was the actual sire of Gigi) must've impregnated her basically as soon as she was capable of getting pregnant.

In light of that, this ALS's decision to keep Emily even stranger. You have a female Asian elephant on the cusp of sexual maturity, the only male elephant capable of siring calves in the herd is her maternal half brother. So you... keep her? Instead of exchanging her for an unrelated female? Or barring that, sell her?
Johnson has to be the sire of Gigi unless George isn't actually castrated, which is unlikely imo.

Likely the reason they're keeping her is because of the controversy the last time they had plans to move cows. This was years back but iirc they planned to move a few of their younger girls (at the time) to Fort Worth before there was a massive upset over it (deserved, I believe this move would involve splitting mother/daughter pairs). Moving her by herself would be questionable and there hasn't really been any options for other ALS cows to ship out with her.

I hate to say this, but she's probably been allowed to breed with Johnson multiple times so she remains reproductive by the time they get a new bull. Not to mention the logistics of separating ONLY Emily/a few other cows at a time from Johnson would be tedious and not very feasible for ALS' facility.
 
I'm more puzzled by the fact that ALS has a set of opposite sex half-siblings in it's elephant herd in the first place.

If their intention was to always have Johnson as their breeding bull, why did they keep Emily instead of offering her to another facility? Johnson's first calf was born in 2013, Emily would've seven years old at the time...

The perfect age to transfer her out of her natal herd and integrate her into a new one.

Emily also had Gigi when she was only eight years old (Well, eight years and ten months if I did the math right) and knowing how long elephants are pregnant for...

That means that Johnson (Assuming that he was the actual sire of Gigi) must've impregnated her basically as soon as she was capable of getting pregnant.

In light of that, this ALS's decision to keep Emily even stranger. You have a female Asian elephant on the cusp of sexual maturity, the only male elephant capable of siring calves in the herd is her maternal half brother. So you... keep her? Instead of exchanging her for an unrelated female? Or barring that, sell her?

There is no ideal age for a young female elephant to leave her natal herd as in the wild, they stay with their maternal family for life. Thankfully thats now wildly recognized by zoos and the Ssp and EEP want to keep families together. Which is the reason why exchanging her for an unrelated female would have been a terrible idea. And ALS really doesnt need more females, they have more then enough already.

However, Emily isnt related with the rest of the females from the maternal side and I dont know how close her social bonds with the families of Natasha and Lilly are. Chances are they are NOT very friendly… so moving her together with her youngest (and only) calf might be a good idea. But ALS doesnt seem inclined to give any female elephants away for free, regardless what they have agreed to as SSP members.
 
There is no ideal age for a young female elephant to leave her natal herd as in the wild, they stay with their maternal family for life. Thankfully thats now wildly recognized by zoos and the Ssp and EEP want to keep families together. Which is the reason why exchanging her for an unrelated female would have been a terrible idea. And ALS really doesnt need more females, they have more then enough already.

However, Emily isnt related with the rest of the females from the maternal side and I dont know how close her social bonds with the families of Natasha and Lilly are. Chances are they are NOT very friendly… so moving her together with her youngest (and only) calf might be a good idea. But ALS doesnt seem inclined to give any female elephants away for free, regardless what they have agreed to as SSP members.
With Johnson leaving, theres really no reason for her and Maya to be moved now. Any new bull that is brought in will obviously be unrelated to any of the females, so keeping her for breeding makes the most sense.
 
Johnson has to be the sire of Gigi unless George isn't actually castrated, which is unlikely imo.

Likely the reason they're keeping her is because of the controversy the last time they had plans to move cows. This was years back but iirc they planned to move a few of their younger girls (at the time) to Fort Worth before there was a massive upset over it (deserved, I believe this move would involve splitting mother/daughter pairs). Moving her by herself would be questionable and there hasn't really been any options for other ALS cows to ship out with her.

I hate to say this, but she's probably been allowed to breed with Johnson multiple times so she remains reproductive by the time they get a new bull. Not to mention the logistics of separating ONLY Emily/a few other cows at a time from Johnson would be tedious and not very feasible for ALS' facility.

I have to admit, I'm desperately curious: Why was George castrated in the first place? Was it a behavioral thing? A medical condition? Was ALS concerned that they couldn't handle having two intact bull elephants at the same time?

I was aware that ALS had run afoul of Animal Rights Activists back in 2020 when they tried to sell a pair of cows to Fort Worth Zoo...

But I wasn't aware that Emily was one of those cows! So ALS did try to move her on! (Granted, five years after the birth of Gigi. But I guess they get points for trying?)

Now, Emily's own mother Kitty died back in 2016. So the ARA's wringing over "separating mother-daughter pairs!" (Yes, I am aware that mothers and daughters stay together for life in the wild.) couldn't have applied to Emily! So I assume that Nellie was being sent with her as a companion, to help ease the transition into a new herd.

I do have to wonder though... Why Nellie? Was Gigi already dead by 2020? I guess she must've been? Otherwise, why didn't ALS simply offer Fort Worth Emily and Gigi instead of Emily and an unrelated calf? The ARA's wouldn't have been able to use the "Separating mothers and daughters is animal cruelty!" angle that way.

I suppose ALS could've moved Emily with her mother Kitty, as she was still alive in 2013. (Granted, as previously mentioned, Kitty did die three years later in 2016 at 51 years of age.)

Although I can understand why they might not've gone for that idea, considering Kitty was basically geriatric and it's hardly best practice to move elderly animals long-distances. And of course, not many zoos would be lining up to accept an old cow elephant, even if she came with a young and hopefully fertile daughter.

As far as the inbreeding goes, half-siblings aren't the absolute worst. They only share 25% of their DNA in common, which, while still a fair bit...

At least it's not 50%. Like say, a father/daughter (Or mother/son or full brother/full sister) pairing would produce. And I know incest to that degree has occurred in zoos before.

Generally speaking, you can usually "get away" with a single generation of incest anyway. It's only when you do it for multiple generations that you tend to start seeing freaky stuff. Still, best to avoid it if at all possible.
 
I have to admit, I'm desperately curious: Why was George castrated in the first place? Was it a behavioral thing? A medical condition? Was ALS concerned that they couldn't handle having two intact bull elephants at the same time?
I will say that Johnson was probably the right choice as African Lion Safari's breeding bull, as he and George share a father (Calvin/Chanda), and George is in direct lineage to Motek and Warda (his maternal grandparents), who had the most calves with each other (Motek also had many more calves with other females too!), while Johnson's mother (Kitty) was wild born which makes his genetics much more valuable. And yes I will say that they probably didn't want two breeding bulls so they castrated the less genetically valuable bull for more genetic diverse.
 
I have to admit, I'm desperately curious: Why was George castrated in the first place? Was it a behavioral thing? A medical condition? Was ALS concerned that they couldn't handle having two intact bull elephants at the same time?
Not sure exactly why but I do imagine it may have had something to do with him being easier to manage, especially since it's long been known he'll probably never be a breeding bull.
I do have to wonder though... Why Nellie? Was Gigi already dead by 2020? I guess she must've been? Otherwise, why didn't ALS simply offer Fort Worth Emily and Gigi instead of Emily and an unrelated calf? The ARA's wouldn't have been able to use the "Separating mothers and daughters is animal cruelty!" angle that way.
The most logical explanation is that Gigi was deceased by that time. Nellie was an older calf (then aged seven) so would've been at the right age to move alongside Emily.
 
At least it's not 50%. Like say, a father/daughter (Or mother/son or full brother/full sister) pairing would produce. And I know incest to that degree has occurred in zoos before.
Its definitely not the worst you can get, but "activists" and much of the public don't really get the genetics angle of half siblings mating and only focus on the siblings portion. It would 100% be negative press for them if it was spread around that a brother-sister pair had multiple offspring together (even though Gigi isn't still around). With the past press issues with their elephants (I hadn't realized the situation with Nellie and Emily was in 2020!), I imagine they'd want to keep some of that information away from public hands.
 
Its definitely not the worst you can get, but "activists" and much of the public don't really get the genetics angle of half siblings mating and only focus on the siblings portion. It would 100% be negative press for them if it was spread around that a brother-sister pair had multiple offspring together (even though Gigi isn't still around). With the past press issues with their elephants (I hadn't realized the situation with Nellie and Emily was in 2020!), I imagine they'd want to keep some of that information away from public hands.
It's also likely Emily's recent calf is the offspring of Johnson too. :confused:

ALS have been trying to transfer Johnson elsewhere for many years now (since at least pre 2020), and there were plans to acquire a bull from Europe which I can only hope is still the plan!
 
George was (is?) managed in free contact and participated in shows and rides which is likely why he was castrated. I remember someone saying George was only chemically castrated but that was years ago and I'm not sure how accurate it was.
He's still managed in free contact. The fact that he is castrated does indeed make him easier to manage, which is probably something ALS has wanted especially as they're going to be retaining him long term.

George is chemically castrated and I guess he's still capable of breeding if the treatment is stopped, but that can't be guaranteed.
 
Has anybody read this yet? https://assets.speakcdn.com/assets/2332/2024-2026_safe_asian_elephant_action_plan_final.pdf

I thought that this section: "As listed in the 2023 Population Analysis and Breeding and Transfer plan, the AZA Asian Elephant population currently consists of 137 animals, comprised of 31 males and 106 females, at 33 institutions (32 AZA-accredited facilities and 1 AZA Approved Sustainability Partner). The currently living SSP population’s pedigree is 95.9% known due to nine animals having all or some portion of their pedigree unknown. Pedigree assumptions were created to address this unknowingness and to complete the pedigree of the potential breeding population. Sixty-eight animals are excluded from the breeding population due to age and reproductive status. After these assumptions and exclusions, the potential breeding population of Asian elephants consists of 69 (30.39) individuals with a 100% known pedigree."

On page four was particularly interesting.
 
Back
Top