Where did you find that document? If it was from the member portals of the AZA website, then it's not public information that's appropriate to share.
North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation
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Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
Do you seriously think that I have access to the AZA member portal? Maybe in my dreams I do!
But no, I am not a zoo professional. Merely a dedicated layperson. I got it from here: SAFE Species
As it's publicly accessible, I say it's fine to post here.
Anyone with an AZA membership has access to the member portal (yes, including some "dedicated laypeople". It wasn't an unreasonable question, especially seeing there have been problems in recent years with zoo chat members leaking information from AZA documents that weren't public info.
You're correct, normally I see these sorts of documents in the member only portion which is why I was concerned, but if the AZA decided to make this one public, then there's nothing wrong with using it here.
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
I actually wasn't aware of that, I was under the impression that one had to work at a AZA member zoo to gain access to the member portal. Interesting, very interesting...
Oh it's not just Asian elephants, plans are also available to read for Lions, Painted Dogs, African's Vultures, Red Wolves, American Turtles, Andean Highland Flamingos, Andean Bears, Asian Hornbills, Black-Footed Ferrets, Chimpanzees, Corals, Eastern Indigo Snakes, Cuban Crocodiles, Gorillas, Giraffes, Monarch Butterflies, North American Songbirds, Orangutans, Radiated Tortoises, Sharks & Rays, Sea Turtles, Tree Kangaroos of Papua New Guinea, Vaquitas, Whooping Cranes & Western Pond Turtles as well.
Other species who have plans being worked on are: African elephants, African Penguins, Cheetahs, Chincillas, Jaguars, Maned Wolves, North American Freshwater Mussels, Perdido Key Beach Mice, Sloth Bears, Sunflower Sea Stars & Ocelots.
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I realize that now, I wasn't aware the SAFE plans were publicly accessible, since I know a lot of the other AZA document types are not publicly accessible.
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
Can't imagine why this sort of information shouldn't be accessible to the public, it's absolutely fascinating.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Considering the fact that George is perfect for ALS to use for demonstrations and is definitely a crowd pleaser just by looks alone (how often do guests likely get to be that close to a bull elephant?) AND that he's related to several of the females, I'd say that even if he could be used for breeding; I doubt they'd risk further inbreeding.
It's not like his genes are underrepresented either, both sides are doing pretty well for themselves population wise to say the least.
There are two other facilities with African elephants; Zoo de Granby with three cows and Parc Safari with two.
Nile Hippo Expert
Well-Known Member
Zoo de Granby has one bull and two cows and Parc Safari has one bull and one cow.
Thank you for the correction. I meant to say *elephants not cows.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Absolutely HUGE news here! I was genuinely not expecting St Louis to EVER send out Raja, and Columbus is such a good fit for him both socially and genetically.
I wonder where this leaves Johnson's move, I suppose it's possible he is also still being transferred just to further boost Columbus' chances for calves, but Im unsure how much excess space Columbus really has. I doubt they'd send out Hank while Connie is still alive, but this will leave three/sometimes four separate social groups Columbus has to rotate. I imagine that we will see Hank leaving shortly after Connie passes at this rate.
And Jade being pregnant too!! This means St Louis is likely trying AI with the other girls, hopefully they succeed before Samudra's move just to secure them as breeders. This is wonderful for Oregon too if their breeding program is starting to get back on its feet.
It's certainly been a long time coming re. moving Raja out. I guess Saint Louis have got to the point where they really needed to sub in another breeding bull for Raja's daughters and the time has inevitably come to send him. It could be argued this could've been done years ago, but then again he was still breeding with Rani and an adequate facility would've needed to have been found for Raja before anything else can be planned.
It does seem to me that both Raja and Johnson will be used to breed, perhaps in a way I described in the population thread. At the most there will be four groups which Columbus can accommodate, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they did plan to send Sabu elsewhere prior to the arrival of these two bulls. I don't see why Connie can't be reunited with Phoebe if that's what's required.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
If I'm recalling correctly, its long since been established that Sabu will be moving back Cincinnati in early 2024 once the Dublin herd is out of quarantine and acclimated. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the goal is to get SheRa/Yasmin or Anak pregnant before the opening of Elephant trek as a big announcement to kick off the opening. If Johnson is arriving sometime in 2024 this could line up with Sabu's move I'm pretty sure.
The reasoning as to why she's seperated still baffles me, but I think Columbus would be willing to re-acclimate her to being in a larger herd setting for her final years if pressing space forced it.
I still think Hank moving to Denver would be a great choice for him. He's a mellow, sociable bull who has been proven to be great around young males. Groucho is over 50 now, and his passing will be a huge social change for the Denver boys. Introducing Hank beforehand would ensure that there is an older, mature bull to continue on Groucho's mentoring status.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I hadn't thought of this previously, but I suppose there is some possibility of Johnson and Raja being introduced together for socialization as well. Their ages very well make this difficult, but given their temperaments (and Johnson's history living with another peer bull), I wouldn't be overly surprised if Columbus was able to have them together for socialization in small spurts.
My assumption is that the bulls will be rotated with the girls intermediatly to give them both a chance to breed. I doubt they'd wait for female calves to pop up before allowing one of the males to breed (re the population thread). Any calves of Raja's would be unrelated to Johnson and vice versa, so no issues would appear once third generation calves arrive, which is decades down the line.
Mr.Ivory
Well-Known Member
I think the best thing going forward is to send Hank to a bachelor facility I would like to say Denver but realistically it's not likely though there are couple of facilities that can house two adult bulls, Tulsa makes the most sense and since there new exhibit is opening sometime next year it ties in with the arrival of Raja and possibly Johnson in 2024.
My ideal social grouping's would be
Phoebe, Rudy, Sundara, Frankie (Raja and Johnson would rotate)
Connie and/or Johnson, Raja
My ideal social grouping's would be
Phoebe, Rudy, Sundara, Frankie (Raja and Johnson would rotate)
Connie and/or Johnson, Raja
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
The issue with Hank is his status as a behavioral non breeder. Really any other facility than Denver plans to hold a breeding herd, something to which Hank cannot contribute accept via AI. He's great for socializing with young males, but again being a behavioral nonbreeder he's not an ideal choice for that either.
What would be best for Hank is to go to a bachelor facility, but I agree that unless Groucho drops dead tomorrow the likelihood of Hank ending up at Denver is slim.
It is possible for Columbus to hold Hank/Connie in addition to the new bulls for a few years yet, but the simple fact is inevitably Hank will need to be transferred out SOMETIME. Columbus has finally realized he's a dead end breeding-wise (naturally that is), and with potentially two proven bulls arriving within a year I'd say his transfer is all but announced.
I have to say, Im very pleasantly surprised at the direction Columbus is taking with their breeding program. I didn't expect a new bull so soon after Sabu, let alone two (one being Raja no less
). While it very well may be too late for Rudy, Columbus is certianly taking the initiative to give their girls as much of a chance to breed naturally as possible. This is long overdue, but great to see.And kudos to St Louis too! Hopefully with their three young girls their breeding program can continue to flourish, I just hope the zoo succeeds in impregnating Maliha soon. Assuming Samundra arrives in 2025, she would be 18, which isn't past the cutoff by any means but cutting it close.
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
No love for The Elephant Sanctuary? They're AZA and definitely don't breed.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I mentioned this on the population thread, but moving Hank to TES doesn't seem like a very plausible or smart decision. TES is currently a retirement facility, and while technically Hank COULD still be used for AI there, it certianly might rear some heads.
Hank isn't exactly a young animal, but he's not old either. He's by all accounts in his reproductive prime. His line isn't underrepresented, but his relatives currently are limited to Ringling (which isn't breeding), White Oak and Endangered Ark (with either young cows or male calves) and Syracuse (with none of them leaving anytime soon). Hank only has one surviving offspring, and is trained for AI so retiring him on account of spacing just doesn't seem like a decision the SSP would reccomend, nor would it be something I think Columbus would decide for him lightly. The ONLY situation I can see Hank going there in would be if they decided he and Connie should go together, but even that feels odd considering Connie likely will only be alive another decade or so, in which Hank would be in his 40s (and still capable of producing sperm).
I genuinely can't think of another facility other than Denver that could be willing to take him long-term. I hate to use the term "taking up space" but when Hank stands as a healthy, middle aged behavioral non-breeder bull, that's kind of what he's doing now. There certianly isn't anything wrong with Hank socializing with a breeding herd at another facility, but I know most zoos likely would not be in a hurry to take him when space used for him could be used for a natural breeding bull, cows and/or calves. Denver is, just logistically, the best place for him, however unlikely.
Yeah I meant to say Hank, my bad.
It seems like Sabu will indeed be transferred back within the next few months with Johnson and Raja arriving later next year. Timing is crucial and if the plan is to move out Hank too, I suppose he'd be moving next year too. Hopefully we'll have an announcement from Columbus soon re. their breeding program. With Sabu returning to Cincy and two new bulls expected to arrive there's a lot to update us on!