North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

[Kudu21]

1. I can`t imagine Columbus getting both Johnson AND Raja while keeping Hank. That`s at least 1 bull too much. My guess is ... they get Johnson in spring 2024 right after Sabu moves back to Cinci, but gets moved to a 3rd facility before the arrival of Raja in 2025.

When it was first revealed that Columbus would also be receiving Raja, this is immediately what I suspected as most likely. Columbus is a very well funded facility, and it is not uncommon for wealthier facilities to front import costs for other facilities in exchange for ownership, loan agreements, etc. It would not surprise me at all if Columbus is just fronting the costs of Johnson's import in exchange for getting to hold him for a year to keep their cows covered in between the time of Sabu's departure and Raja's arrival before moving him on to his intended home.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

When it was first revealed that Columbus would also be receiving Raja, this is immediately what I suspected as most likely. Columbus is a very well funded facility, and it is not uncommon for wealthier facilities to front import costs for other facilities in exchange for ownership, loan agreements, etc. It would not surprise me at all if Columbus is just fronting the costs of Johnson's import in exchange for getting to hold him for a year to keep their cows covered in between the time of Sabu's departure and Raja's arrival before moving him on to his intended home.

This is a possibility, but the documents indicate a long-term breeding loan to Columbus, not another facility. Even if they were the ones covering the cost, the intended receiving facility would be listed somewhere in those documents most likely, no? Im no expert on these documents so anyone feel free to correct me lol.

Columbus very much does have the capacity for multiple bulls. I don't think keeping Johnson, Raja AND Hank long-term is plausible, but at least for a small portion of time it would be possible. Difficult, but possible.
Columbus hasn't officially announced anything on their end for either bull transfer, so I'd say it's equally likely arrangements to send Hank out could be being made or already are made, and we just don't know about it. He's far from Columbus' most beloved animal so I doubt they'd have qualms about sending him away. They may be just waiting until Johnson arrives before sending him off to ensure Connie isn't without company of some sort.

With massive missteps being taken in Columbus' breeding program, I don't think accepting two proven bulls long-term when they have the facilities to house them is out of the question. With two proven bulls, they all but guarentee multiple generations of elephant births.

Not to mention I can't even think of a facility that would take Johnson? Several facilities are already at capacity bull-wise or have strong programs with just a singular bull. Maybe Tulsa, but they have no cows to show and already have a much more valuable male in Sneezy, same with LA and Miami. Maybe Endangered Ark, but they're not AZA so surely that would be indicated in the paperwork.

 

[IndianRhino]

I agree with those stating that Johnson might be sent out elsewhere around the time Raja arrives. If I’m remembering correctly, the import documents don’t specifically mention Johnson is intended to breed with Phoebe, Rudy, and Sundara. When the Rotterdam girls were imported to Smithsonian, I remember there was a document that explicitly stated their import was in accordance with the SSP’s breeding recommendation for them and Spike. Also, I really don’t think Columbus needs two breeding bulls right now because I’m sure Raja will do just fine on his own considering he’s sired a number of calves in the past. It will be a number of years before Columbus is in need of another breeding bull and Johnson could be used elsewhere in the meantime.

Also, this is just a thought but personally, I would like to see Johnson head to ABQ. Yes, he’s not the most genetically ideal match for Rozanna who is an extremely valuable cow. However, she is 31 years old and all her calves have passed away so she needs to have as many calves as she can before she becomes post-reproductive. Being the hyper-prolific bull he is, Johnson will definitely take care of that and an added bonus is that he’s had almost exclusively female calves so far and it would be really good for ABQ’s program long term if he continued that trend there. Morever, ABQ has had two bulls in the past, and with Albert’s TB diagnosis, I’m uncertain of his breeding capabilities at the moment.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

I agree with those stating that Johnson might be sent out elsewhere around the time Raja arrives.

If Johnson will be sent out before Raja arrives, he will have been at Columbus for less than a year. Between quarantine periods, intro periods and actual time given to breed, Johnson will hardly have any time at all with the Columbus girls.
Just think of Sabu, he arrived at Columbus last November and wasn't fully introduced to Rudy and Sunny until March. And he wasn't introduced to Phoebe until August. Johnson would likely have even less time. Any possible US facilities currently would be able to take him right away, so why would he even be in Columbus at all if they JUST had a proven bull with their girls and will possibly have another one before 2025...having a bull for a "transition" period just seems like weird management and at needless travel expense.

The transfer doccuments specifically discuss that Johnson is to be used to expand CZA's breeding program. It doesn't name any of the females but it does name Columbus and no other facilities. I wasn't able to find any documents in the download that confirmed Columbus got approval to import Johnson either, so we may be jumping the gun a bit on this even.

Also, I really don’t think Columbus needs two breeding bulls right now because I’m sure Raja will do just fine on his own considering he’s sired a number of calves in the past.

Columbus could easily rotate the bulls to try and ensure their girls get pregnant. Double the bulls is double the chances, and gives a rich socialization experience for both the girls and the bulls themselves. Having two bulls also decreases the need to import a new bull once any daughters hit breeding age. If both boys sire calves, then any of Johnson's can breed with Raja and vice versa, and this is completely omitting any potential female calves of Sabu. Columbus would be almost guaranteeing themselves a self-contained breeding herd for several decades.

Morever, ABQ has had two bulls in the past, and with Albert’s TB diagnosis, I’m uncertain of his breeding capabilities at the moment.

Albert has very little genetic value currently also. Being part of the most represented line in NA, he shouldn't be the sole breeding male to begin with; let alone be breeding with females as a TB positive animal. ABQ really needs a new male and soon, Johnson wouldn't be a poor choice but I'd like to see a European import myself just to bring fresh blood.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

I don't think there's a single facility in NA capable of holding a massive herd of multiple matrilines.

White Oak Conservation is 17,000 acres, of which 2,500 have been dedicated to Asian elephants. That being said, they already have 30+ of them.

 

[15399]

If Johnson will be sent out before Raja arrives, he will have been at Columbus for less than a year. Between quarantine periods, intro periods and actual time given to breed, Johnson will hardly have any time at all with the Columbus girls.
Just think of Sabu, he arrived at Columbus last November and wasn't fully introduced to Rudy and Sunny until March. And he wasn't introduced to Phoebe until August. Johnson would likely have even less time. Any possible US facilities currently would be able to take him right away, so why would he even be in Columbus at all if they JUST had a proven bull with their girls and will possibly have another one before 2025...having a bull for a "transition" period just seems like weird management and at needless travel expense.

The transfer doccuments specifically discuss that Johnson is to be used to expand CZA's breeding program. It doesn't name any of the females but it does name Columbus and no other facilities. I wasn't able to find any documents in the download that confirmed Columbus got approval to import Johnson either, so we may be jumping the gun a bit on this even.

AZA and SSP plans can change fast, while moving animals across country lines can be a very slow possible. It's honestly a very plausible hypothesis that Johnson may not be staying at Columbus long, and that instead he'll be moved elsewhere relatively quickly upon arrival. Again, Columbus Zoo has said nothing about the arrival of Johnson, so there's really not much to go off of for whether or not he'll be at Columbus long-term.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

AZA and SSP plans can change fast, while moving animals across country lines can be a very slow possible. It's honestly a very plausible hypothesis that Johnson may not be staying at Columbus long, and that instead he'll be moved elsewhere relatively quickly upon arrival. Again, Columbus Zoo has said nothing about the arrival of Johnson, so there's really not much to go off of for whether or not he'll be at Columbus long-term.

I'm no expert on the logistics of animal transports, especially international ones, but it's odd that Johnson would move to Columb1us after years of paperwork just to immediately move again. Its not overly healthy for Johnson to be moved twice in a short period or cheap for ALS, Columbus or a potential third facility. I see very little point in Columbus continuing the transfer if their end goal is to ship Johnson to another facility by early 2025 at the latest.

Im not overly sure why so many people think Columbus wouldn't or couldn't obtain two breeding bulls long-term? Its not overly far fetched to assume Columbus would be willing to send out Hank to ensure room for them, and they have proven in the past that they can hold multiple bulls without issue. Several facilities have multiple active breeding bulls, its just that they would be arriving relatively close to one another.
There's no way that both transfers haven't been in the works for a while. Johnson's evidently goes back to at least 2022 and no doubt Raja's goes back a few months at least. The SSP transfer discussion of the transfers had to overlap to a degree.

In my opinion, its more likely that both bulls will stay long-term, it just feels too irresponsible of the SSP to suggest such a short term transfer. I also think that would be relatively unprecedented? Correct me if Im wrong but I don't believe a facility has ever kept an imported bull for such a short period as what others are suggesting.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

I thought this would be of interest to the users who follow this thread - Health report re-affirms Lucy the elephant should not leave Edmonton Valley Zoo - Edmonton | Globalnews.ca

Lucy of Edmonton Valley Zoo is not only still alive, but her health has also recently made an improvement!

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Does anyone have any ideas/news on what San Antonio's future with Elephants is? I've heard they DO plan to bring them back, but I haven't heard anything on what species or when they plan to update their complex.

 

[StoppableSan]

Does anyone have any ideas/news on what San Antonio's future with Elephants is? I've heard they DO plan to bring them back, but I haven't heard anything on what species or when they plan to update their complex.

Asian elephants, and they'll be the next development after the gorilla complex.

San Antonio Zoo: building on a foundational year

"We had an older habitat that was built in the forties or fifties, not at all how we would build a modern elephant habitat. Elephants will be back in the future... That will be the next signature animal: we will get to work on bringing elephants back. We don’t want generations of children to grow up without being able to see and connect with and learn about elephants in person."

I can't find the article where Morrow specifically mentions Asian elephants'd return, but he did say there would be a new Asian section in the expansion area across the highway.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Asian elephants, and they'll be the next development after the gorilla complex.

San Antonio Zoo: building on a foundational year

"We had an older habitat that was built in the forties or fifties, not at all how we would build a modern elephant habitat. Elephants will be back in the future... That will be the next signature animal: we will get to work on bringing elephants back. We don’t want generations of children to grow up without being able to see and connect with and learn about elephants in person."

I can't find the article where Morrow specifically mentions Asian elephants'd return, but he did say there would be a new Asian section in the expansion area across the highway.

Absoloutly wonderful that they plan to hold Asians again! Nothing wrong with more African holders but there are not a massive number of facilities who plan to sustainably hold Asians going forward.

My hope personally is for a bachelor facility similar to Denver. Miami, Tulsa and LA are presumably going to hold breeding herds, so another bachelor holding facility would be ideal. We really need a second bull-dedicated facility in NA. Its wonderful that facilities like Houston and Cincinnati will be able to hold a small number, but compared to Denver's nearly 10 bull capable facility they just kind of pale. There will be an increasing need for bachelor holding in the coming years most likely, NA isn't nearly in Europe's situation but its best to have facilities prepared and willing to take in surplus.

Not to mention there really needs to be a place for behavioral non-breeders to go. Animals like Colonal Tusk in Fort Worth or Hank in Columbus really shouldn't continue to be taking up space in breeding facilities when they cannot naturally contribute to them. In bachelor holding they can continue to bond with other animals and contribute via AI in a place where natural breeding isn't occuring anyway.

 

[ZCChip]

If the non breeders and older cows would go to TES, that would free up the spaces for bachelor herds and breeding groups. As well more space as PC is mandatory.
Decide to what to spend resources on.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

If the non breeders and older cows would go to TES, that would free up the spaces for bachelor herds and breeding groups. As well more space as PC is mandatory.
Decide to what to spend resources on.

Im not sure sending behavioral non-breeders to TES would be a smart idea. Those bulls can still easily produce calves via AI, and since TES is a "retirement" facility I don't think they'd allow sperm collection. Might get some ARAs up in a frenzy.
Loosing donors isn't really something the population can afford. Retiring non-breeders who are still actively producing sperm is just a bad move diversity wise.

I don't see why these bulls shouldn't be sent to bachelor facilities if they're of good temperament (as most bulls are nowadays). Arguably these animals SHOULD be in scenarios where they are exclusively used for AI so they don't have to sit in breeding facilities.

Denver is technically a "stop" for their younger boys to mature before they move on to breeding scenarios...but let's be honest, all of them minus Duncan and maybe Bodhi are probably staying there for a majority of their lives.

 

[Jambo]

Denver is technically a "stop" for their younger boys to mature before they move on to breeding scenarios...but let's be honest, all of them minus Duncan and maybe Bodhi are probably staying there for a majority of their lives.

Bohdi will almost certainly be in a breeding situation soon- being the only surviving offspring of Coco, he's just too valuable to remain at Denver.

Duncan's a little bit more iffy, I guess at this point there's a better chance his older, full brother Baylor will become a breeding bull at another facility as he still remains at Houston.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Bohdi will almost certainly be in a breeding situation soon- being the only surviving offspring of Coco, he's just too valuable to remain at Denver.

Duncan's a little bit more iffy, I guess at this point there's a better chance his older, full brother Baylor will become a breeding bull at another facility as he still remains at Houston.

I'm inclined to disagree on Bodhi. He is Coco's only living offspring, but on his maternal side he's part of the ever-so-prolific Motek/Warda line. He has relatives galore in NA AND Europe, and that number will only grow. Any value he has is greatly diminished by that fact.

Duncan on the other hand I feel very likely will end up in a breeding situation years down the line. His father is wild born and, aside from Duncan, has no children or grandchildren outside of Houston. His maternal side is represented but is restricted currently to three facilities (OKC, Houston and St Louis) so I wouldn't call that unvaluable by any means.

Im honestly surprised Baylor hasn't been moved out yet. He's a relatively valuable young bull and almost certianly would prove himself quick given that he grew up witnessing natural breeding. I suppose there's nowhere willing/able to take him currently but I would hope both him and Tucker would be able to join natural breeding situations soon!

 

[Jambo]

I'm inclined to disagree on Bodhi. He is Coco's only living offspring, but on his maternal side he's part of the ever-so-prolific Motek/Warda line. He has relatives galore in NA AND Europe, and that number will only grow. Any value he has is greatly diminished by that fact.

Duncan on the other hand I feel very likely will end up in a breeding situation years down the line. His father is wild born and, aside from Duncan, has no children or grandchildren outside of Houston. His maternal side is represented but is restricted currently to three facilities (OKC, Houston and St Louis) so I wouldn't call that unvaluable by any means.

Im honestly surprised Baylor hasn't been moved out yet. He's a relatively valuable young bull and almost certianly would prove himself quick given that he grew up witnessing natural breeding. I suppose there's nowhere willing/able to take him currently but I would hope both him and Tucker would be able to join natural breeding situations soon!

Re. Bohdi, it would be a massive disappointment for him to remain at Denver. Even though his maternal line is well represented in that aspect, he's the only living offspring of his wildborn father! Therefore he's far more valuable than majority of the other bulls in North America and should have a place at a facility sooner rather than later.

With Duncan we also have to consider the fact that Thai has an array of children (albeit on the younger side), but could very well have multiple sons and daughters breeding come a decades time. Duncan's mother (Shanti) is also not that valuable. She's still a breeding age female and could theoretically still reproduce going forward. As of this point she has a daughter (with a breeding recommendation) and three sons, at least one of which is going to be a breeding bull one day. With that in mind, Duncan's probably the better chance to remain at Denver long term. Considering Duncan and Baylor are full brothers, it would make sense to move Baylor into a breeding situation one day over Duncan who's already in a cohesive grouping at Denver.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Re. Bohdi, it would be a massive disappointment for him to remain at Denver. Even though his maternal line is well represented in that aspect, he's the only living offspring of his wildborn father! Therefore he's far more valuable than majority of the other bulls in North America and should have a place at a facility sooner rather than later.

Bodhi definitely shouldn't remain at Denver forever. I'm only saying that putting him into a breeding situation as a main bull right now isn't a fabulous move. Coco is remarkably valuable, but those genes don't erase the numerous relatives across NA that he and his offspring would be very closely related to. Right now he has his mother, aunt and numerous cousins active in breeding situations that come from his mother's full siblings. Even other represented lines usually are saved a bit of the genetic messiness via half siblings, but this isn't the case with Bodhi's line. Currently in NA he doesn't have any relatives less related than full 2nd cousins. Bodhi appears to be thriving in Denver currently, but I don't see a pressing need to put him in a breeding situation when he's really not that valuable technically. Wildborn genes don't immediately equal incredible value, especially with Motek/Warda. He's a wonderful candidate to leave down the line, but imo he shouldn't be a priority.

With that in mind, Duncan's probably the better chance to remain at Denver long term. Considering Duncan and Baylor are full brothers, it would make sense to move Baylor into a breeding situation one day over Duncan who's already in a cohesive grouping at Denver.

Duncan's definitely not leaving for quite a bit. Part of the reason he was even transferred is because he butt heads with Thai and didn't have many social manners, something he will learn in Denver. Hes also very young, and I'd be immensely surprised if Baylor didn't enter a breeding situation before him for sure.

I also wouldn't call Shanti unvaluable. She only has two living half siblings in breeding situations and thus far all of their offspring are confined to their natal facilities. Granted, that likely won't always be the case but her line isn't widespread at all. I'd argue that her calves hold great value, especially given that they carry a wildborn father to boot.
It certianly won't be for a while, but out of Denver's current boys Duncan is the most valuable of them and could very likely end up in a breeding situation. I do agree that Baylor should take priority in comparison though, he honestly should leave Houston soon.
Albuquerque needs a kickstart, there might be a good move for him.

 

[15399]

Bodhi appears to be thriving in Denver currently, but I don't see a pressing need to put him in a breeding situation when he's really not that valuable technically.

There are a few different metrics used to determine how genetically valuable an animal is. If you're thinking of it purely from a mean kinship perspective, there's a chance you are right (however that uses complicated mathematical formulas that none of us truly know the results to). However, one of the other metrics looks at the preservation of the founder base. One of the worst things for genetic diversity is to lose a founder, while oftentimes what SSPs try to do is balance founder representation (while oftentimes perfect is impossible, the goal is, say, if you have 10 founders total, for each one to make up 10% of the population). Using these metrics, an animal who is the only surviving offspring of a deceased founder is by definition one of the most valuable animals.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

Those bulls can still easily produce calves via AI, and since TES is a "retirement" facility I don't think they'd allow sperm collection.

TES is still part of the AZA, so surely they have to comply with SSP recommendations?

 

[Yazziel]

TES is still part of the AZA, so surely they have to comply with SSP recommendations?

As you said it’s a recommendation not an order. The SSP has no power over the facilities only recommends who is the best genetic match for individuals participating in a breeding program. And TES is always quick to push out that they don’t support breeding at their facility so AI is definitely out of the question until proven otherwise.