From their website:
Does The Elephant Sanctuary breed elephants?
• The organization does not support increasing the number of captive elephants.
FAQ
North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation
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Does The Elephant Sanctuary breed elephants?
• The organization does not support increasing the number of captive elephants.
FAQ
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
I am aware of their stance on captive breeding.
The point I was trying to make was that as an AZA certified facility, they are still obligated to follow AZA policies.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I'm almost positive that sending any behavioral non-breeders to TES gives them the right to deny sperm collection. The SSP reccomendations are just that, and no accredited facility is required to follow them. Technically no zoo is required to breed their elephants, nor are they required to train or use bulls for AI. The AZA/SSP cannot force facilities to do what they want breeding wise. Just look at Raja's situation in St Louis.
The SSP could say "Hey can we use this bull for AI" and they are well within their rights to say no. TES is incredibly transparent about their stance on elephants in captivity, and while their anti-zoo rhetoric has died down significantly since receiving accreditation, there's no denying it's still there to a degree. Them agreeing to sperm collection would be a reversal of everything the organization stands for and would definitely hurt them publicity-wise.
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
"Asian elephant populations within the Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA) institutions are managed under a Species Survival Program (SSP). In 2021, the AZA Asian Elephant Task Force was created to guide the necessary work and changes needed to achieve a paradigm shift to ensure a sustainable population for the future. One vital component of this strategy is ensuring that AZA institutions prioritize the collective needs of the population over individual, organizational desires." (Emphasis mine.)
Sourced from: https://assets.speakcdn.com/assets/2332/2024-2026_safe_asian_elephant_action_plan_final.pdf
Stuff like the above makes me genuinely wonder if the AZA is finally starting to put a bit more bite into their SSP recommendations and won't continue to just bark at holders who refuse to comply in the future. Like, it sounds that for the Asian Elephants at least, that their will be actual consequences for non-compliance with the SSP.
Frankly [From my complete and total layperson's prospective], refusing to comply with SSP recommendations for no good reason should be grounds for losing AZA accreditation IMHO.
Refusing a transfer out of concern for an animal's health is one thing, saying no to a transfer because the animal in question happens to be particularly popular with locals is quite another. The former is a good reason to refuse a transfer [Assuming that it's actually a valid concern, not just the facility in question making excuses to not cooperate], the latter is very much not.
And yet Raja is now scheduled to move to Columbus Zoo sometime in Late 2024 or early 2025.
Sourced from: Saint Louis Zoo Elephant News | Saint Louis Zoo
I mean, it's not like they have to tell anyone that they're allowing sperm collection. They wouldn't even have to do it with their own staff if they're that opposed to it.
Hell, any zoo thinking about retiring their behavioral non-breeding bull to TES could just collect from him prior to transferring him. Semen can be frozen for storage and then thawed as needed. Works great for tons of species.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I hope this is the case. There's been far too many cases for my liking of zoos refusing transfers and making downright irresponsible decisions when it comes to their breeding programs. SSP coordinators SHOULD have more power when it comes to pushing zoos, so that cases like St Louis don't happen again.
While I don't think St Louis' transfer of Raja was nessecarily 100% the result of a push from the SSP (given Jade's pregnancy and presumable efforts to AI Maliha), but I wouldn't be surprised if they did push them a bit. Columbus being the receiving facility after they've been one of the most mismanaged breeding facilities feels intentional as well to a degree.
Regardless of AZA policies, TES doesn't even pretend to be a breeding facility. The animals they receive are openly stated to be "retired" by the facility. Most of the animals that come from AZA facilities are SSP dead-ends and wouldn't even be considered for breeding. The AZA knows this, and I doubt they'd send sound breeding animals to a retirement facility if the goal was still to use them for AI.
While zoos aren't strangers to keeping things from the public, an organization openly against breeding opting to participate in what the ARAs so lovingly call "involuntary semen collection" is a whole new level of nontransparency. Not to mention most if not all zoos share the sires of AI calves, so it would get out anyway and cause a massive stir.
TES seems to have a good thing going with serving as the non official retirement facility for phase out elephants or aging incompatible individuals, no reason to rock the boat and try to make it double as bachelor holding.
It's far more sustainable and practical for behavioral nonbreeders to be sent to a designated bachelor holding in an AZA zoo where they can be openly continue to contribute to the SSP.
It seems like both of you are being overly harsh towards the AZA and accredited zoos who don't do things exactly the way you'd prefer. There's been no indication that Saint Louis Zoo has been refusing to transfer Raja, as there's been no indication until now that transferring Raja was even SSP-recommended. To assume Saint Louis Zoo was acting in bad faith because they wanted to keep Raja just seems flat-out insulting to one of the best zoos in the country, and one that has had a great impact on numerous SSPs over the years. Frankly, we don't know the whole story regarding why animals do or do not transfer, and why certain animals have or have not bred. To be overly negative and complaining over how the SSP has been managing elephants does no one any good, and it especially doesn't do any good to be overly negative and attacking the decisions of individual zoos. Like it or not, any decision related to elephants (or other high-profile zoo animals) are extremely sensitive, and there are innumerable stakeholders at play in choosing which animals to breed, which animal transfer where, etc.
While much of this decision is based on genetics, the health of individual animals, etc., it is equally important for SSPs to balance the needs of individual institutions, the economic and logistic feasibilities of transfers, and other factors too. To complain about which animals are transferring (or not transferring) comes across as criticizing the people with the difficult jobs of managing the elephant SSPs, despite the fact none of us have all of the information as to why the decisions made were what they are. Any good SSP coordinator is in constant communication with each and every zoo housing a species, so understand the needs and wants of institutions and the balancing of their needs. If TES doesn't want anything to do with breeding elephants, the SSP coordinator isn't going to recommend for them to breed elephants, and expecting anything else is absurd. Likewise, they aren't going to give breeding recs to institutions that for whatever reason cannot handle a baby elephant at the moment (whether that be due to animal health, spatial constraints, money, or something else). To criticize an institution for not breeding elephants, when we don't know the whole story, is similarly irresponsible and frustrating to institutions that more than likely are not acting in bad faith.
As for the discussion on whether or not SSP recommendations are mandating, they are not. Institutions have a lot of lee-way into whether or not to follow recommendations, whether that be due to an animal's health, spatial constraints, or arguably "selfish" motivations. That said, there is precedent for the loss of accreditation due to a zoo making a repeated pattern of not following SSP recommendations and being difficult to work with from other zoos (Safari West), but this would need to be significantly more than a zoo wishing to keep an elephant that's a local celebrity.
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
@Neil chace
While I can't speak for @Frankie_number_1_fan I can assure you that any and all criticism that I give comes from a place of genuine concern, not out of malice. And I like to think that I'm at least a bit more forgiving than an totally uneducated member of the public would be when it comes to my complaints and how I phrase them.
Still, to say that complaining about a specific zoo hanging onto the very first elephant that they ever successfully bred for over thirty years is somehow "irresponsible" is laughable. At the end of the day, we're all just a bunch of randos on the internet. I very much doubt that any of the staff at St. Louis Zoo or the Asian Elephant SSP coordinator loses any sleep over what is said on here. Frankly, they have better things to do than to obsessively read internet forums geared to zoo enthusiasts.
And to be perfectly honest, I don't feel that anything that I've said regarding this topic is particularly harsh or negative. I've not called anyone or any institution unflattering names or the like, just expressed some frustration at what a specific situation looks like from an outsiders prospective. Venting is healthy and facilities should welcome criticism IMHO.
Criticism, from my prospective, is not evil. It's intended to build something stronger by pointing out it's weaknesses, not tear it all down just out of spiteful meanness! To never criticize anyone or anything is evil IMHO. How are things supposed to progress, let alone improve, if nothing but empty pleasantries is ever expressed?
While I can't speak for @Frankie_number_1_fan I can assure you that any and all criticism that I give comes from a place of genuine concern, not out of malice. And I like to think that I'm at least a bit more forgiving than an totally uneducated member of the public would be when it comes to my complaints and how I phrase them.
Still, to say that complaining about a specific zoo hanging onto the very first elephant that they ever successfully bred for over thirty years is somehow "irresponsible" is laughable. At the end of the day, we're all just a bunch of randos on the internet. I very much doubt that any of the staff at St. Louis Zoo or the Asian Elephant SSP coordinator loses any sleep over what is said on here. Frankly, they have better things to do than to obsessively read internet forums geared to zoo enthusiasts.
And to be perfectly honest, I don't feel that anything that I've said regarding this topic is particularly harsh or negative. I've not called anyone or any institution unflattering names or the like, just expressed some frustration at what a specific situation looks like from an outsiders prospective. Venting is healthy and facilities should welcome criticism IMHO.
Criticism, from my prospective, is not evil. It's intended to build something stronger by pointing out it's weaknesses, not tear it all down just out of spiteful meanness! To never criticize anyone or anything is evil IMHO. How are things supposed to progress, let alone improve, if nothing but empty pleasantries is ever expressed?
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
There's nothing wrong with being critical and discussing precived issues over elephant zoo programs. My point isn't to say Saint Louis is bad at elephant management, they do have one of, in my opinion, best designed elephant exhibits, and their breeding program's past just goes to show that success. But there's no denying Raja holds immense sentimental value to Saint Louis. His daughters should, by AZA's own suggestions, should've been given the oppertunity to breed years ago (in only Jade and Maliha's case of course). Before Rani's passing she was the only female he could breed with and couldn't be kept with the rest of the herd over inbreeding concerns. There's a point where that sort of management becomes questionable and up until his transfer announcement was a common criticism. I don't doubt that his transfer was a long time in the making, but its not out of left field to say that he likely only stuck around as long as he has because of his popularity.
Its impossible to deny the mammoth (pun intended) task SSP coordinators and zoos have, and these decisions are definitely not made lightly, but to say that every decision they make (or don't make) is a good move is overcrediting. Just look at Columbus, they relied on a behavioral nonbreeder for over a decade before another bull was brought in. It does take some bulls time to figure things out, but again there's a point where the decision to keep him becomes questionable.
However, I think these are just minor stains on honestly great elephant programs. There isn't a single AZA accredited facility that I would say is "bad" at elephant management. No SSP program or zoo is perfect, and at the end of the day obviously will have holes and flaws. As can be seen in St Louis and Columbus, they're actively taking better steps going forward too and I'm confident we'll see positive results soon.
Jabali is given his age proximity to the cows way too young to breed with them. A mature elephant bull is in the range of 22-25+ and ideally in the wild well over 30-35 when they become a dominant one. The same is true for Titan at his facility Sedgwick County Zoo in Wichita.
If zoos would consider that and incorporate this into their husbandry management and breeding protocols they would perhaps have less of a problem with breeding their elephants (the same inept recommendations are sometimes put forward for rhinos where bulls typically are only mature at 8-10 years of age. Now if you put a 3-year old youngster with a 13 year old cow at a facility your are simply wasting breeding space time). That currently bull Callee is on a roll at the Wichita - Sedgwick Zoo with making the reproductive cows successfully is really from a standpoint of breeding up the numbers a good thing.
Down the line, it is to be recommended that zoos adopt a strategy of keeping young bulls with the adult proven bull so they can learn by example. That is a social dynamic also often lacking.
That’s certainly a fair point - and is why a lot of bulls haven’t seen success until they reach their late teens, early twenties as they’re simply too small to successfully mount the cows.
In some situations, AI has had to have been used to temporarily overcome this and it seems the same was done with Titan to ensure he is in fact capable of conceiving. Once he grows into a mature bull I’m confident we’ll be able to see results from him.
I would assume all calves are sired by Callee as he would’ve been the bull put in with the herd over the last seven or so months. Sedgwick have maintained a concentrated effort of breeding him with the girls following his arrival.
Unless you’re aware of him being in with the herd within this timeframe?
Nile Hippo Expert
Well-Known Member
I very highly doubt Ajani is the sire of Simunye's calf, at least with Callee around.
When you consider the cycling and the cows only coming into their reproductive window for a few days at most at a time, it’s likely Callee would’ve been the bull in with them rather than wasting a whole cycle with an unproven bull. Callee was transferred in to get all of the girls pregnant ASAP!
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
In the post annoucing Simunye and Talia's pregnancies it was said that potential fathers were Ajani, Callee and (in Talia's case) Titian, which is an indication Titian has been with the girls and potentially observed breeding too.
They haven't said potential fathers for Xolani and Arusi's but I'd assume if Titian is in fact being given time with the girls that he's a potential father along with Callee.
However, given that Titian hasn't been proven naturally and Callee is a proven breeding powerhouse, it's a strong possibility these four calves are all his.
From the recent announcement, this was posted as a comment on Facebook by the zoo:
“In total, we have six females with five of them at the age of breeding.
Currently, the paternity of each pregnancy is unknown as we had three bulls with the opportunity to breed. Paternity testing will be necessary to determine the father. However, it is important to note that Titan, being Simunye's calf, is not the father of her baby.”
Bull Callee came in end of May (around the 25th) so I am guessing it would have been impossible for him to sire on the dot ..., Simunye (7 months pregnant) for that matter is probably sired by Ajani ... with Talia at the cut off point could be either Ajani or Callee and the last 2 confirmed definitely Callee (me hypothesising the possible scenario's).
Nada. It’s almost certain Callee is the sire. Ajani spent literal years with the cows and was unable to successfully get any of them pregnant. Callee’s arrival, albeit tight, timeline wise, does lineup with Simunye’s conception time. And especially considering that he is a very well-proven bull, she likely cycled very shortly after his arrival and Callee successfully bred her. Hypothetically, she could’ve cycled the day after his arrival, and assuming he was up to it, he could’ve bred her and conceived that pregnancy.
I think you are likely correct, but is it possible that Ajani may have witnessed and learned from a proven bull and could be the sire of at least one? I hold out some hope!
I very much agree.
When you consider how often cows cycle, it’s probably likely Simunye happened to enter her reproductive window within the days following Callee’s arrival. Wanting her to get the best chance at conception asap (rather than waiting another cycle); they could’ve easily introduced her to Callee at this point in time. It’s not totally out of question.
Possible, but again, I imagine Callee would’ve been the bull in with the cows during the days they enter their conception period. Introducing Ajani (a bull who’s failed for years now) would’ve contradicted the whole reason they brought Callee in in the first place. He’s there to sire calves asap. Maybe after he’s done so might they allow Ajani to learn and give him a chance with the next cohort of calves.