North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

Yazziel said:
Osh is a behavioral non breeder. What I was told by his keepers was that when he was put in with Donna he would never quite figure out what he was supposed to do.
And Oakland Zoo is not interested in breeding elephants, so I doubt they would train Osh for AI.
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They may not be interested in breeding onsite but that shouldn’t deter them from training him for semen collection. Plus they're moving towards bachelor holding and one of the “requirements” AZA is pushing is allowing semen to be collected from their bulls when it’s needed.
 
The safari park definitely needs a proven male. There's not that many floating around NA to begin with, but subtracting Mabu, Jackson and Callee really only leaves Tendaji and Mac as active breedsrs right now.
Tendaji, imo, would be a good choice. I know Dallas' goal was/is to breed Zola in addition to Mlilo, but its been years and if she's not pregnant now or soon, she probably won't ever be unfortunately. Mlilo won't be able to have another calf for a few more years at least, so Tendaji could theoretically go to the Safari park and then back to Dallas. Other than him theres no other great choices honestly.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
The safari park definitely needs a proven male. There's not that many floating around NA to begin with, but subtracting Mabu, Jackson and Callee really only leaves Tendaji and Mac as active breedsrs right now.
Tendaji, imo, would be a good choice. I know Dallas' goal was/is to breed Zola in addition to Mlilo, but its been years and if she's not pregnant now or soon, she probably won't ever be unfortunately. Mlilo won't be able to have another calf for a few more years at least, so Tendaji could theoretically go to the Safari park and then back to Dallas. Other than him theres no other great choices honestly.
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There is also Sdula, who has fathered 3 daughters naturally. It might be time for Zoo Tampa to let him go and accept that Majetka and Mbali might not conceive again. His daughters Mpumi and Mavi are also at an age where they can conceive their first calf.
 
Yazziel said:
There is also Sdula, who has fathered 3 daughters naturally. It might be time for Zoo Tampa to let him go and accept that Majetka and Mbali might not conceive again. His daughters Mpumi and Mavi are also at an age where they can conceive their first calf.
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Iirc, Tampa has has been trying to breed him again for years now and he's been the one that's stopped showing interest. If that's not the case then he'd be a wonderful candidate for sure!
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Iirc, Tampa has has been trying to breed him again for years now and he's been the one that's stopped showing interest. If that's not the case then he'd be a wonderful candidate for sure!
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As of summer of last year he had bred Mbali and was showing interest in Majetka. The keepers were hoping for calves 2025. At the moment of my visit (I did the elephant encounter) Mbuli was confirmed cycling but Majetka had not been tested to see if she was cycling or already pregnant.
 
What does mean "behavioral non-breeder"? Because he only had access to 2 females he knew too early.

Osh saw many mating at Howletts. He was move to Oakland quite early and be surely dominated by females. I think it would not be worst to move him in another collection.

If you don't have breeders, build some by moving them! I don't say that OSH is THE solution, just saying that sometimes we are not enough open mindedon the possibilities we have.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
The safari park definitely needs a proven male. There's not that many floating around NA to begin with, but subtracting Mabu, Jackson and Callee really only leaves Tendaji and Mac as active breedsrs right now.
Tendaji, imo, would be a good choice. I know Dallas' goal was/is to breed Zola in addition to Mlilo, but its been years and if she's not pregnant now or soon, she probably won't ever be unfortunately. Mlilo won't be able to have another calf for a few more years at least, so Tendaji could theoretically go to the Safari park and then back to Dallas. Other than him theres no other great choices honestly.
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Was Tendaji originally mistaken for a female because that is what elephant.se states him as?
Tendaji at Dallas Zoo in United States - Elephant Encyclopedia and Database
 
Yazziel said:
As of summer of last year he had bred Mbali and was showing interest in Majetka. The keepers were hoping for calves 2025. At the moment of my visit (I did the elephant encounter) Mbuli was confirmed cycling but Majetka had not been tested to see if she was cycling or already pregnant.
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But I thought @PSO said Zootampa had no confirmed pregnancies
 
GPN said:
If you don't have breeders, build some by moving them! I don't say that OSH is THE solution, just saying that sometimes we are not enough open mindedon the possibilities we have.
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The current issue is that there aren't quite enough proven bulls to go around. There are only seven proven (iirc). Of those seven, three are overrepresented to the point where they genuinely shouldnt be breeding for years (Callee and Jackson) or not breeding at all again (Mabu), leaving Mac, Tendaji, Bulwagi and Sdula.
There are a couple of (imo) promising bulls that might prove themselves in the next couple of years, but for now there really aren't that many, especially when the ssp is clearly more inclined to reccomend proven bulls versus unproven ones.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
There are a couple of (imo) promising bulls that might prove themselves in the next couple of years, but for now there really aren't that many, especially when the ssp is clearly more inclined to reccomend proven bulls versus unproven ones.
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If only proven bulls are only ever recommended, then there will always be an issue of not having enough bulls. There once was a time when Mabu and Jackson were unproven too- and look at them now. There's a need to recommend unproven bulls to breed if there's any hope of making them proven some day in the future.
 
Neil chace said:
If only proven bulls are only ever recommended, then there will always be an issue of not having enough bulls. There once was a time when Mabu and Jackson were unproven too- and look at them now. There's a need to recommend unproven bulls to breed if there's any hope of making them proven some day in the future.
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There's also the issue that several of the bulls popping around in bachelor herds are related to Mabu or Jackson. Those bulls would likely be perfect breeding candidates if it weren't for them being closely related to a plethora of individuals.
 
tigris115 said:
Is there a way to gauge an unproven bull's ability or is it simply a matter of putting them with females and hoping for the best?
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Theres more to it but getting the deed done successfully does come down to putting them together and hoping for the best. In my opinion though, it’s just as important that the cow is receptive as-well. A proven bull can fail with cows who put simply are uncooperative (dropping to knees, crossing back legs, continually moving forward when mounted).
 
Neil chace said:
If only proven bulls are only ever recommended, then there will always be an issue of not having enough bulls. There once was a time when Mabu and Jackson were unproven too- and look at them now. There's a need to recommend unproven bulls to breed if there's any hope of making them proven some day in the future.
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I totally agree, but San Diego absolutely needs a proven bull because they have a whopping 5 females that need to get pregnant ASAP or face infertility. The problem is that female elephants need to start breeding rather young - if a female is older then 20 and didn't already have a calf (or is pregnant), chances are that she will never sucessfully breed. Of course there are females that become pregnant at age 21 or 22 with a sucessful outcome, but the likelyhood of a pregnancy that ends with a surviving calf gets smaller and smaller. At age 23/24, the fertility of a nulliparous female is pretty much toast. Once a female elephants has sucessfully started breeding, she needs to become pregnant at regular intervials to maintain her fertility - a gap of 10 years between 2 calves is already too long for a good number of females, they will never fall pregnant again.

San Diego has one female (Swazi) who had her last calf in 2012, so it may already be too late for her. 2 females that had calves in 2018, so they have a bit of time but not that much. And they have 2 young females born in 2006 and 2017 - it`s high time both become pregnant ASAP. Only the young female born in 2012 has no urgency to become pregnant.

Unproven bulls need to be sent to zoos whose females are either very young or just gave birth so that the bull has time to get acclimated and to work things out with the girls without risking their ability to reproduce. San Diego did just that, they brought in an unproven male after shipping Mabu out, and when he failed they bought time by bringing Mabu back, but now it`s urgent. They need a big proven bull who can realistically be expected to start mating right away. I am not even against sending Callee to San Diego because the lack of big proven breeding bulls in the US is so severe - as long as they limit his breeding to one calf per female. These calves would not be important genetically, but the females will be important for the future of the herd regardless their genetics, and any calf Callee sired there would help maintain the mother`s fertility for the next 5-7 years until a bull who is genetically a better match can be sourced.

However, if Tendaji is already a dominant character, he might be a good choice too. Dallas could bring in Mabu to breed since their nuliparous female needs to get pregnant ASAP (see above...). Or Sdudla, unless the lack of calves in Tampa in the last 10 years is related to his ability to sucessfully breed again.
 
Yassa said:
Dallas could bring in Mabu to breed since their nuliparous female needs to get pregnant ASAP (see above...)
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Dallas has been attempting to breed Zola for years now. She's with a proven bull, so the reason why she's not gotten pregnant is likely an issue on her end versus Tendaji. Bringing in a bull (especially one so ridiculously overrepresented as Mabu...) wouldn't really have much of a point.

Yassa said:
Or Sdudla, unless the lack of calves in Tampa in the last 10 years is related to his ability to sucessfully breed again.
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Iirc, Tampa said they had stopped breeding for several years, and only started back up recently. Sdula has been observed breeding, so its likely the gap between calves was just too much for their older females.
 
The most likely reason why Zola isn‘t getting pregnancy is that Tendaji is not mating her properly. He is still pretty young and she may not be cooperative enough for his not yet perfect skills. Or he is not dominant enough. Or he is not sexually interested in her. I have no inside knowledge, but from experience, these are the most likely scenarios, and bringing in a mature bull would fix them.
 
Yassa said:
The most likely reason why Zola isn‘t getting pregnancy is that Tendaji is not mating her properly. He is still pretty young and she may not be cooperative enough for his not yet perfect skills. Or he is not dominant enough. Or he is not sexually interested in her. I have no inside knowledge, but from experience, these are the most likely scenarios, and bringing in a mature bull would fix them.
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From what I understand, he has mated with her multiple times, and was sucessfull enough for keepers to be hopeful for pregnancy (I could be wrong on that though).
If they were to move Tendaji elsewhere and bring in another bull, it should be anyone but Mabu. He has 13 living offspring and 2 on the way already, making him easily the most overrepresented sire in NA. He should honestly be retired from breeding for now, especially since his multiple daughters are approaching/of breeding age themselves.
Theres no excuse other than unknown health issues to not utilize bulls like Bulwagi and Sdula, who are definitely mature but not nearly as represented.
 
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