North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

[John Marchwick]

I don’t know who confirmed this, but I read earlier in a different thread that neither Luna and Kianga were artificially inseminated and bred naturally both. Now Kianga I have a hunch that Maclean is the one that’s the father of her calf (for starters Disney has been trying to get Kianga and Maclean to breed for years), but that would mean the father of Lunas calf is either Jabali or Tsavo and apparently a new breeding bull for the African elephant population in the U.S.

 

[Wisp O' Mist]

Jabali or Tsavo

Any preferences between the two? As in, would it be better if one were the sire of Luna's calf, rather than the other?

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Any preferences between the two? As in, would it be better if one were the sire of Luna's calf, rather than the other?

Jabali without question (imo). While Tsavo is his wildborn mother's only surviving offspring, his father is Jackson and so he has three siblings breeding right now, one of which rather prolifically (Callee, Nadirah and Kianga). Jabali on the other hand has a much less represented sire (Ali) and his mother Vasha only has two calves (himself and Kianga). With Luna's valuable genes, Jabali would be the better option.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

So this is something that just occurred to me this morning, but I actually wouldn’t be surprised if this transfer is proceeding a herd split for Houston.

Oklahoma has their new barn opened, and the rest of their new outdoor exhibit space will be completed soon enough as well. They’ve already expressed that they will be housing a breeding herd, and going off of word on the forms here, they will also be seeking a new breeding bull as well.

In line with that, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Shanti, Joy, and Tucker transferred from Houston to Oklahoma to be the nucleus of their new breeding herd. This would simultaneously knock out two birds with one stone, giving Oklahoma a very functional new breeding herd, as well as opening up a lot of space for Houston’s population to expand through Tess‘s family. This would also set Houston up well to not have to worry about doing any further transfers out for another 15 odd years, especially if they send Baylor out around the same time as well.

I definitely think a move to Tulsa soon is a very likely option. With Nelson and Teddy needing the bachelor space in a few years or so, Tucker and/or Baylor will certianly have to be moved to another facility. Not to mention that Tulsa and Houston aren't a massive drive away from each other, so the practicality of distance is there as well.
Although, I frankly wouldn't be surprised if Houston did opt to breed Shanti again (if shes not already pregnant currently) and had Joy have her first calf at the facility and then move the girls with their calves in about 4-5 or so years.
In the meantime, Baylor's move truthfully seems all but announced at this point. I do agree that Denver is probably the most logical place for him, and likely the only realistic one all things considering. Denver is having a bull of similar age depart their social group, Denver and Houston have collaborated in the past, Baylor already has spent over half his life in a bachelor group, he knows Duncan already, etc.
Denver is the only established asian NA bachelor facility, so he could potentially go to somewhere like Miami or Dickerson to establish a herd there, that feels like a massive reach.
As for potential breeding facilities he could go to, there's only a few really unlikely options. The asian population isn't in need of bulls like their african cousins, and so theres really only ALS (which, given their history seems almost laughable to suggest), and ABQ (while they have the space, again doesn't feel needed).

 

[John Marchwick]

I definitely think a move to Tulsa soon is a very likely option. With Nelson and Teddy needing the bachelor space in a few years or so, Tucker and/or Baylor will certianly have to be moved to another facility. Not to mention that Tulsa and Houston aren't a massive drive away from each other, so the practicality of distance is there as well.
Although, I frankly wouldn't be surprised if Houston did opt to breed Shanti again (if shes not already pregnant currently) and had Joy have her first calf at the facility and then move the girls with their calves in about 4-5 or so years.
In the meantime, Baylor's move truthfully seems all but announced at this point. I do agree that Denver is probably the most logical place for him, and likely the only realistic one all things considering. Denver is having a bull of similar age depart their social group, Denver and Houston have collaborated in the past, Baylor already has spent over half his life in a bachelor group, he knows Duncan already, etc.
Denver is the only established asian NA bachelor facility, so he could potentially go to somewhere like Miami or Dickerson to establish a herd there, that feels like a massive reach.
As for potential breeding facilities he could go to, there's only a few really unlikely options. The asian population isn't in need of bulls like their african cousins, and so theres really only ALS (which, given their history seems almost laughable to suggest), and ABQ (while they have the space, again doesn't feel needed).

Regarding Teddy when you say bachelor did you mean temporarily or permanently? Because Teddy is a really genetically valuable male I thought, with him being descendants of 2 wild born parents, meaning Tess and Thailand or aren’t that well represented in the population I thought?

Also this one is a bit out there, but why couldn’t Baylor go to Albuquerque? Cause Albert having tuberculosis I don’t think he’s allowed to breed again? Maybe not now but they’re gonna need a new bull there I think sooner than later.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Regarding Teddy when you say bachelor did you mean temporarily or permanently? Because Teddy is a really genetically valuable male I thought, with him being descendants of 2 wild born parents, meaning Tess and Thailand or aren’t that well represented in the population I thought?

Certianly not permanently, but given that hes only going on 3 years old he'll definitely need to be in bachelor holding for quite a few years yet before he's mature enough to breed. I would be very surprised if he NEVER entered a breeding situation.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Also this one is a bit out there, but why couldn’t Baylor go to Albuquerque? Cause Albert having tuberculosis I don’t think he’s allowed to breed again? Maybe not now but they’re gonna need a new bull there I think sooner than later.

There's currently nothing publicly indicating that Albert won't get over his TB and be able to breed again. Since Rozie is currently pregnant there's obviously not a pressing need for him to be an active breeder, so Baylor going there just feels a little out of place. Not to mention that he's still on the younger side in comparison to Rozie. Young bulls have had sucess in the past with older cows, but it would be frankly a strange choice to swap a (semi)experienced, mature bull for a younger unexperiencd one if Albert is indeed able to breed in the future.
I personally do think ABQ would benefit from a new bull, but I firmly believe that an experienced bull would be a better choice for the facility to maximize Rozie's breeding potential.

 

[John Marchwick]

So I checked out the link @Frankie_number_1_fan shared with me. And it seems like for Asian elephants, Chuck is not the only bull Asian Elephant projected to leave Denver Zoo…

On page 242 it saids that Bodhi (Coco X Phoebe) is being transferred to the Rosamond Gifford Zoo in Syracuse New York. And it says Billy (Alexander X Yasmin) is getting transferred to the Portland Zoo in Oregon. And as mentioned in the North American Asian elephant population thread for 2024, Tucker is going to White Oak in Florida.

So that will leave Denver with Groucho, Jake, Baylor and Duncan I believe right?

https://downloads.regulations.gov/FWS-HQ-IA-2024-0048-0009/content.pdf

 

[Jambo]

So I checked out the link @Frankie_number_1_fan shared with me. And it seems like for Asian elephants, Chuck is not the only bull Asian Elephant projected to leave Denver Zoo…

On page 242 it saids that Bodhi (Coco X Phoebe) is being transferred to the Rosamond Gifford Zoo in Syracuse New York. And it says Billy (Alexander X Yasmin) is getting transferred to the Portland Zoo in Oregon. And as mentioned in the North American Asian elephant population thread for 2024, Tucker is going to White Oak in Florida.

So that will leave Denver with Groucho, Jake, Baylor and Duncan I believe right?

https://downloads.regulations.gov/FWS-HQ-IA-2024-0048-0009/content.pdf

Nice find! That's very interesting to hear re. the planned Denver transfers. Denver will indeed be left with those four males, with a few spaces available to acquire some other surplus males in the years to come.

There's actually a fair bit more interesting information listed in the document which I'll try and put together in another post.

 

[John Marchwick]

Nice find! That's very interesting to hear re. the planned Denver transfers. Denver will indeed be left with those four males, with a few spaces available to acquire some other surplus males in the years to come.

There's actually a fair bit more interesting information listed in the document which I'll try and put together in another post.

Elephant wise you mean?

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

So I checked out the link @Frankie_number_1_fan shared with me. And it seems like for Asian elephants, Chuck is not the only bull Asian Elephant projected to leave Denver Zoo…

On page 242 it saids that Bodhi (Coco X Phoebe) is being transferred to the Rosamond Gifford Zoo in Syracuse New York. And it says Billy (Alexander X Yasmin) is getting transferred to the Portland Zoo in Oregon. And as mentioned in the North American Asian elephant population thread for 2024, Tucker is going to White Oak in Florida.

So that will leave Denver with Groucho, Jake, Baylor and Duncan I believe right?

https://downloads.regulations.gov/FWS-HQ-IA-2024-0048-0009/content.pdf

Unless there are plans to transfer in males from outside the region, then that appears to be the case!
I'm unsure on how quickly these reccomendations are expected to be fuffilled, but I would be surprised if they were all close to each other due to potential herd dynamic stressors.
This will leave Denver with the room to hold more bulls soon, which is fabulous imo given the number of young males in the population currently.

I am very surprised on the news of Syracuse and Oregon receiving new bulls though. Samson will have only sired one calf and Doc will have only two surviving calves (assuming Mali doesn't have another calf before Bodhi arrives).

 

[John Marchwick]

Unless there are plans to transfer in males from outside the region, then that appears to be the case!
I'm unsure on how quickly these reccomendations are expected to be fuffilled, but I would be surprised if they were all close to each other due to potential herd dynamic stressors.
This will leave Denver with the room to hold more bulls soon, which is fabulous imo given the number of young males in the population currently.

I am very surprised on the news of Syracuse and Oregon receiving new bulls though. Samson will have only sired one calf and Doc will have only two surviving calves (assuming Mali doesn't have another calf before Bodhi arrives).

I’m shocked there wasn’t a mention for Tulsa is what surprised me the most. Cause Tulsa I know they’re getting a new bull, and they want a multigenerational herd which they don’t have currently. I can see the reasonings though for both.

Having grown up in a bachelor herd, Bodhi could be a perfect mentor too for Malis 2 calves on how to be a mature bull when they get older. And like what Columbus and Oklahoma City Zoo is doing with their girls, which is allowing them or soon giving them the opportunity to breed with multiple different bulls. Maybe that’s the intention for Oregon and Rosamond Gifford, who for each of their reproductive females currently only have bull to choose to naturally breed with. And actually with Oregon Zoo, this gives Samson a male companion cause I remember before he was placed with Samudra if I’m not mistaken. With Billy arriving to Oregon it gives Samson another adult male to be around in Samudras absence.

 

[Jambo]

Utilising the document @Frankie_number_1_fan found I have compiled a list of a few of the key facilities involved within the regional breeding program and their breeding/transfer plans:

Colombus:

• Hank has no recommendations to breed at the present time
• Raja will be the new breeding male at Columbus (following Sabu), no mention re. Johnson for some reason. Raja is recommended to breed with all three females.

Houston:

• Tucker and Baylor to be transferred out (As has been previously mentioned in this thread)
• Chuck will arrive with a specific breeding recommendation with Joy
• Billy at Denver or Hugo at Dickerson Park are recommended donors for Tupelo's next pregnancy (which will be via AI)

Oklahoma:

• Kandula specifically has a non breeding recommendation
• Bowie is recommended to breed with both Kairavi and Achara (Achara of whom is already pregnant)

Oregon:

• Rose Tu is recommended to breed with Samson now, and then Billy once he arrives from Denver
• Samson is also mentioned as a potential AI donor for Tupelo at Houston (although he isn't mentioned on Tupelo's side) - thought it would still be worth mentioning though

Saint Louis:

• Once Samundra has arrived, he has a recommendation with all three reproductive aged females (Maliha, Jade and Priya)
• Maliha and Priya have AI recommendations with Bohdi, Jake and Billy at the moment
• Whereas Jade's only recommended donor was Jake (Jade is currently pregnant)

Syracuse:

• There is an intended pairing between Bohdi and Mali, but Doc is still recommended to breed with Mali in the meantime, prior to his arrival

White Oak:

• At this point in time, no breeding recommendations had been given out; which is why I'm assuming Tucker had none listed, despite his recommended transfer.

Keep in mind, it appears this was finalised around a year ago, so whilst some plans and recommendations may still be in place, others may now be altered (I'm presuming as is the case with Johnson's proposed transfer to Columbus).

 

[15399]

Truthfully, I find it quite concerning this plan made the light of day. The SSP plans for elephants are typically kept confidential to the point that they aren't even posted in the AZA website's members portal, where almost all other SSP postings are published. While I know this document was found in good faith from a publicly accessible source, I'm not sure how advisable it is to be publicizing/reporting on these plans, given how the AZA likes to keep them extremely confidential- and none of us know who is reading this page.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

Truthfully, I find it quite concerning this plan made the light of day. The SSP plans for elephants are typically kept confidential to the point that they aren't even posted in the AZA website's members portal, where almost all other SSP postings are published. While I know this document was found in good faith from a publicly accessible source, I'm not sure how advisable it is to be publicizing/reporting on these plans, given how the AZA likes to keep them extremely confidential- and none of us know who is reading this page.

If the plans being confidential was such a massive issue, then it wouldn't have been made publicly available.
The reason I shared this was to highlight previously unknown change to the population and to cite a source for it. I would not have shared if it was a confidential doccument. I trust that Columbus wouldn't have agreed to allow this to be public if it was a serious confidentiality issue. Truthfully my hope was that it wouldn't spark a huge discussion for the same concerns you have, but as it is a public source it felt odd to be cryptic about it/put the information out there without providing said source.
I understand that this "falling into the wrong hands" is a concern, but activists will always be an issue, and there is not nearly a big enough movement to cause any genuine jeopardy to any of these proposed moves (which don't even include plans for non-SSP individuals even though I'm sure those plans exist). Zoochat isn't as serious of a social media site as instagram, facebook, etc anyway so as long as we're careful, don't make a massive deal out of this and don't over post about it I don't see any huge issues surfacing from the information being shared.

 

[Jambo]

Truthfully, I find it quite concerning this plan made the light of day. The SSP plans for elephants are typically kept confidential to the point that they aren't even posted in the AZA website's members portal, where almost all other SSP postings are published. While I know this document was found in good faith from a publicly accessible source, I'm not sure how advisable it is to be publicizing/reporting on these plans, given how the AZA likes to keep them extremely confidential- and none of us know who is reading this page.

I understand your point and I too was surprised as I've never came across anything like this before. It was posted on a government website, so I don't doubt there is any question of whether they should be 'publicly available'.

I've actually scanned through the rest of the document and have been surprised to see other SSP plans for other species mentioned too. I don't think it takes a genius to figure all species referenced revolve around Columbus and the species they hold, so I'm assuming this is something zoos may have to do frequently (ie. submit this sort of document to the FWS).

 

[Yassa]

I guess no one imagined someone would find the AZA elephant recommendations in this huge document. But I don‘t agree with zoos being so very secretive about anything related elephants anyway!

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

On the topic of potential imports to zoos like Tulsa, LA, ALS, etc. Are there any specific individuals that might be good candidates? I'm very unfamiliar with Europe's population of elephants as a whole.

 

[John Marchwick]

I feel like if Tulsa was getting imports from outside the country the permits would’ve come out.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

I feel like if Tulsa was getting imports from outside the country the permits would’ve come out.

It could very well be a few years before Tulsa or LA intends to receive new animals, the permits to do so might simply not be out yet. Think of Johnson's move. It's been in discussion since before 2020 and we are just now hearing about it, similar discussions could easily be in the works for those facilities.
As for ALS, they could receive a new bull next week and we would hear nothing about it lol.
Point being, we can't always find everything in public doccuments.