North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

Has The Elephant Sanctuary ever taken in any individuals that were not post-reproductive from Association of Zoos and Aquariums-accredited facilities if they were still valuable to the population in some way?
 
wild boar said:
Has The Elephant Sanctuary ever taken in any individuals that were not post-reproductive from Association of Zoos and Aquariums-accredited facilities if they were still valuable to the population in some way?
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No? Why on earth would the AZA recommend a genetically valuable animal that's still capable of breeding go to a facility that does no captive breeding?

The Elephant Sanctuary is the unofficial-official retirement facility for the AZA. Just look at the transfer records.
 
Wisp O' Mist said:
No? Why on earth would the AZA recommend a genetically valuable animal that's still capable of breeding go to a facility that does no captive breeding?

The Elephant Sanctuary is the unofficial-official retirement facility for the AZA. Just look at the transfer records.
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Unless they are infertile and I missed it, Artie and Tonka could almost certianly still be used for AI donation. So, in a way, yes they do have very valuable reproductive individuals on their hands that will more than likely never be utilized.

Considering both bulls are likely behavioral nonbreeders, then their transfer was likely due to simply lack of space in breeding and bachelor facilities.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Unless they are infertile and I missed it, Artie and Tonka could almost certianly still be used for AI donation. So, in a way, yes they do have very valuable reproductive individuals on their hands that will more than likely never be utilized.

Considering both bulls are likely behavioral nonbreeders, then their transfer was likely due to simply lack of space in breeding and bachelor facilities.
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There is no official statement but I have spoken to keepers at Zoo Knoxville and they've said Tonka is AI trained but has never produced a viable semen sample so he is considered sterile.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
For Asiatic elephant I am much less enthousiastic to say the least. I feel there is a very long battle uphill ahead to expand the number of breeding groups in US zoos in order to attain some status quo situation and some hope for long term sustainability.
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I feel like there have been some great steps in the Asian population imo. Every single breeding facility has an active bull on site or will have an active breeding bull on site within a few years. The SSP is clearly prioritizing the movement of bulls as well so that we not only will have more sires to rotate but the priceless bachelor holding will free up as well. Denver will have the space to hold two-three more bulls within two years time if reccomend transfers follow through.
I also believe that the SSP pushing for housing more than one bull is pushing zoos to form bachelor herds onsite (like Houston) which decreases the pressure on having "too many" bulls in the region. Facilities like Syracuse, Columbus, Fort Worth and Cincinnati will likely have bachelor herds by the end of the decade if not earlier. We are seeing cows be bred earlier and the SSP is pushing for 2-3 year birth intervals in addition to the import of new cows. It'll be a few years before we can truly see the results of these changes, but (baring unexpected issues) we should see an increase of births.
The genetic diversity of the current population isn't half bad either. Our founder representation is well-off and we still have a small handful of completly underrepresented bulls that have/will be entering into breeding-wise situations soon. Despite remaining reliance on AI for a few individuals (Tupelo frustratingly comes to mind), Im genuinely not unhappy with the direction things have been going.

Im truthfully more worried about the African population. There's been stunning progress with the amount of births and pregnancies, but all minus a small few have been from the same two lineages: Mabu and Jackson's. We are facing a serious problem with a lack of proven bulls, and there's little chance of fixing this problem when so many facilities are without a bull on site. Truthfully the only route I can see is to import young bulls from Europe and export some of our bachelors. There simply aren't enough bulls in the NA region up to the task of breeding and soon we will be facing a population of young animals that are all half siblings, cousins or both.
 
Yassa said:
In addition to what Hyak_II said and a point that‘s often overlooked, bull calves need other calves - ideally of both sexes and different ages- to develop normal sexual behavoir. Because bull calves start ‚play mounting‘ their siblings at a pretty young age, and when they whitness mating behavoir among the adults, they will copy it and ‚practice‘ with their siblings. This is only possible when other calves are present. It is hard (or rather impossible) to say what is more important for a young bull - growing up with an adult bull in the herd as role model, interacting with him, or watching natural breeding behavoir between the adults, or practicing for the future by play mounting with other calves. In the ideal social environment, bull calves have it all, and zoos should strive to provide it all.
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Do older Bulls for example if there is a Herd with a 45year old Bull and a 35 year old Bull still mount younger calfs because they will be dominated by the older Bull and not have the opportunity to mate ?
 
En!gma said:
Do older Bulls for example if there is a Herd with a 45year old Bull and a 35 year old Bull still mount younger calfs because they will be dominated by the older Bull and not have the opportunity to mate ?
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do you mean younger cows?
 
Something that's been on the brain recently, is there anything that could be contributing to National's girls not being pregnant yet? Is this an issue on Spike's end (IE him not mounting them) or are they just simply not getting pregnant for some reason? They've been there for a while now and both are fairly social with Spike so I'm genuinely surprised we haven't seen a calf out of there yet.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Something that's been on the brain recently, is there anything that could be contributing to National's girls not being pregnant yet? Is this an issue on Spike's end (IE him not mounting them) or are they just simply not getting pregnant for some reason? They've been there for a while now and both are fairly social with Spike so I'm genuinely surprised we haven't seen a calf out of there yet.
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Has he even mounted one of the cows yet?
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Something that's been on the brain recently, is there anything that could be contributing to National's girls not being pregnant yet? Is this an issue on Spike's end (IE him not mounting them) or are they just simply not getting pregnant for some reason? They've been there for a while now and both are fairly social with Spike so I'm genuinely surprised we haven't seen a calf out of there yet.
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He has bred them both, if they are pregnant I don't expect an announcement until 2-3 months before their due or after they pass their 10-12 month point. Trong Nhi hasn't had a calf in almost 11 years and this would be Nhi Linhs first so I suspect they will want to make sure they're viable pregnancies or at least make it over halfway before announcing given the "risk" for both.
 
E Maximus said:
He has bred them both, if they are pregnant I don't expect an announcement until 2-3 months before their due or after they pass their 10-12 month point. Trong Nhi hasn't had a calf in almost 11 years and this would be Nhi Linhs first so I suspect they will want to make sure they're viable pregnancies or at least make it over halfway before announcing given the "risk" for both.
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I'm happy to hear Spike has at least bred them. He's one of the most valuable bulls without any offspring at the moment and it would be a massive shame if he was a non-breeder for some reason.
I know you'd mentioned a few months back that the girls weren't pregnant, hence my curiosity (although that certianly could have changed by now)!
 
So… I need clarification on something about Mikki at the Louisville Zoo. I’ve gotten mixed messaging she is and isn’t a reproductive female. Is she still a reproductive female, and if so, I’m curious why the move still to a sanctuary and not another breeding facility?
 
John Marchwick said:
So… I need clarification on something about Mikki at the Louisville Zoo. I’ve gotten mixed messaging she is and isn’t a reproductive female. Is she still a reproductive female, and if so, I’m curious why the move still to a sanctuary and not another breeding facility?
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I think that Mikki is 100% capable of having another calf, because elephants in captivity have given birth as old as 50, and she is just 38. Also, she had a calf just five years ago, and elephants sometimes have calves up to fifteen years apart, so ten years is a relatively big window for birth. However, I think that the Louisville zoo is moving them to a sanctuary because even though they may be extremely popular animals, it is just what is best for the animals. One of those times where quality is better than quantity. Also, the zoo has stated in several social media posts that Mikki is probably not being bred anymore due to her age, which I do disagree with because hey Renee at Toledo had a calf and 45, but that isn't the case with every elephant.
 
Nile Hippo Expert said:
I think that Mikki is 100% capable of having another calf, because elephants in captivity have given birth as old as 50, and she is just 38. Also, she had a calf just five years ago, and elephants sometimes have calves up to fifteen years apart, so ten years is a relatively big window for birth. However, I think that the Louisville zoo is moving them to a sanctuary because even though they may be extremely popular animals, it is just what is best for the animals. One of those times where quality is better than quantity. Also, the zoo has stated in several social media posts that Mikki is probably not being bred anymore due to her age, which I do disagree with because hey Renee at Toledo had a calf and 45, but that isn't the case with every elephant.
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There was more at play than just her age. The zoo does not wish to release the reasons, so I won't either. I will say it is definitely in her best interest to be retired from breeding. Not worth the risk regardless of how valuable she may be. That being said, Mikki has been the one of the only constants in Punches life for the last 30+ years so even if they were to want to breed her again, separating them at this time despite them being different species would be ill-advised. Plus, AZA frowns upon mixed-species elephant exhibits(Asian and African) nowadays so there would be no other place for them.
 
Nile Hippo Expert said:
I think that Mikki is 100% capable of having another calf, because elephants in captivity have given birth as old as 50, and she is just 38. Also, she had a calf just five years ago, and elephants sometimes have calves up to fifteen years apart, so ten years is a relatively big window for birth. However, I think that the Louisville zoo is moving them to a sanctuary because even though they may be extremely popular animals, it is just what is best for the animals. One of those times where quality is better than quantity. Also, the zoo has stated in several social media posts that Mikki is probably not being bred anymore due to her age, which I do disagree with because hey Renee at Toledo had a calf and 45, but that isn't the case with every elephant.
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We have zero knowledge of Mikki's reproductive health as well. Its a very real possibility that putting her through another AI procedure, pregnancy and birth would be dangerous. Only the zoo can make that call. Not every elephant is Renee unfortunately lol.
We also have to keep in mind that Louisville's elephant exhibit is incredibly outdated. Its frankly not suitable to house elephants long-term and the zoo is very aware of that. While it would be preferable to send Mikki to a breeding facility, there's virtually no other facilities that would be open to accepting both her AND Punch given modern-day management styles.
Its definitely a bummer to be loosing a founder, but the zoo is in a very tough logistical situation with this.
 
Nile Hippo Expert said:
I think that Mikki is 100% capable of having another calf, because elephants in captivity have given birth as old as 50, and she is just 38. Also, she had a calf just five years ago, and elephants sometimes have calves up to fifteen years apart, so ten years is a relatively big window for birth. However, I think that the Louisville zoo is moving them to a sanctuary because even though they may be extremely popular animals, it is just what is best for the animals. One of those times where quality is better than quantity. Also, the zoo has stated in several social media posts that Mikki is probably not being bred anymore due to her age, which I do disagree with because hey Renee at Toledo had a calf and 45, but that isn't the case with every elephant.
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Humans can reproduce past the age of 50 with help of IVF too, but the risks steadily increase with every year that passes after 35 (weird how similar the life cycles of humans and elephants are).

A human can make an informed decision about whether to undertake those risks, an elephant cannot. Also, even at the best AZA facilities, veterinary medicine is nowhere close to the level of human medicine (It’s not cheap either).
 
Elephant's in the wild are well known to breed up to their 50's and some cows and breed untill their 60's, the world famous Echo from Amboseli National park breed untill she was 60, and several cows had calves up until they were in their mid 60's, though in a captive setting it is ultimately up to veterinarians and female elephant are better off not breeding so late in age.
 
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I think the key thing to consider is the health of cow - some cows may not be suitable for breeding at an older age due to their physical condition or health conditions they may have.

Not all cows are able to do so, so it's unreasonable to assume that cows can still breed into their 40's and 50's just because some other cows have in the past. It's very individual to each cow and their condition.
 
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