the bigger issue is yes Indali could conceive but without a mother figure to help her like through the birth and feed the baby. Indali could find it very overwhelming and scary doing it without much if any support from only 1 other elephant who isn’t related! Even at whipsnade the mother of the youngest elephant not only has her mum but also her mums mum, grandma for support, and the second youngest still has her mum around when she falls pregnant to help support her especially for the first time!
Chester Zoo Elephant Riva Hi Way has died
- Thread starter Ryley
- Start date
Ngl, with how critical things are, I wouldn't be surprised if Chester set their remaining elephants to other facilities, especially the females so that they can enjoy a cohesive family unit. Perhaps there could be a silver lining to that cloud as it'll give them the opportunity to greatly expand the size of their elephant facilities
The amount of bad luck they got hit with is genuinely scary
The amount of bad luck they got hit with is genuinely scary
At the end of the day, I think continued speculation on the part of this forum - both on the potential reasons for this highly-unfortunate turn of events, and the course of action going forward - is unwise, and potentially harmful..... especially when you consider that some of the most forthright opinions have come from individuals living on the other side of the world from the zoological collection in question and with little-to-no actual familiarity with the zoo or the matter at hand 
Best for us to leave the matter be, perhaps.
Best for us to leave the matter be, perhaps.
At the end of the day, I think continued speculation on the part of this forum - both on the potential reasons for this highly-unfortunate turn of events, and the course of action going forward - is unwise, and potentially harmful..... especially when you consider that some of the most forthright opinions have come from individuals living on the other side of the world from the zoological collection in question and with little-to-no actual familiarity with the zoo or the matter at hand
Best for us to leave the matter be, perhaps.
many of us are passionate about zoos and elephants. Many of us have watched elephants for years and years. I personally have watched Indra give birth to her first calf and saw her mother kill him all on the live camera. On the other hand I witnessed the birth of Marlar and the entire herd was supportive of that birth inside the cologne barn. We all want the best, but in the end the Chester Zoo will make the decisions as they know the best and we all will go along with that.
EthicalZoos?
New Member
I feel for the zookeepers. I cannot imagine how hard it is to lose such a dear elephant. Having said that, maybe elephants' health with current standards for size of enclosures, considering their size, nomadic nature and highly social disposition, needs to be re-evaluated?
P.S. I cannot change my name! I wanted to say EthicalZoos! Not with a question mark! How do I change?
Your implied criticism of Chester’s elephant husbandry is highly inappropriate at this time, and potentially offensive
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
When Chester has not even released the cause of Riva's death, it is impossible to make accurate criticisms of their husbandry. The zoo, for a time anyway, had a wonderful and incredibly natural herd structure with a multigenerational herd of multiple calves. Chester has been hit with what can be chalked up to bad luck over the years between EEHV, old age issues and unfortunate but completely natural causes of death.
EthicalZoos?
New Member
I said nothing about the husbandry and ASKED if it would be considerable to look at other factors, such as enclosure space. I have no doubt the veterinarians and keepers had nothing but the best interest health wise in mind.
EthicalZoos?
New Member
I agree that it is impossible to make accurate criticisms of the husbandry and elephant care without known cause of death. I was not meaning to criticize, just suggesting that perhaps there are other more universal factors, not just for Chester Zoo but other ways we handle conservation efforts and health of elephants' welfare in zoos, that would merit exploring. I do not see how asking more questions is a criticism.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
You are primarily receiving the response that you are because this topic has been discussed heavily in other areas of Zoochat. There is certianly nothing wrong with asking questions, but when the same topic is rehashed often it can be frustrating, especially in a thread that has so much back and forth already. I hope this doesn't come off as harsh, as that isn't my intention.
The deaths at Chester have all been unfortunate but there is also nothing that suggests they are linked to exhibit size. EEHV, old age deaths, etc. have all occurred at facilities with larger exhibits than Chester. As for a social scenario being the cause for Chester's record, I find that unlikely. As mentioned, Chester had the most ideal herd setting for years until EEHV knocked down their numbers. Even at the start of this year their situation was still ideal with a mature cow and her daughters (even if they were alongside a motherless young bull and an unrelated geriatric female). Riva's death could be linked to Sundara's absence, but until Chester releases her cause of death its counterintuitive to assume. Point being, could Chester benefit from a larger exhibit? Yes of course. Was it the cause for their several deaths? Probably not.
ChiChi
Active Member
do you know why Karishma is non breeding?
Maybe they should move Karishma and Elizabeth to Chester
Unless Karishma & Elizabeth are currently separated from the main herd, why would they want to move them? Plus there's every chance Elizabeth could be pregnant as she's around the age to conceive. Very unlikely this was ever on the cards
On the whipsnade page it did say they had been separated from the main herd; this was dated October 2024
I mean I've never been Whipsnade so you could well be correct, however moving an unrelated pair of females into an already established herd(albeit depleted herd as it stands) is a huge risk.
Maya is now 58yrs old & Indali is just starting to reach sexual maturity at the age of 8. Plus Anjan is still there I believe and he could be getting a bit boisterous. There would be a huge number of factors to take into consideration before moving any new females in.
If Karishma and Elizabeth are indeed now being kept permanently separated from the main herd, I don't see why this shouldn't be given a try.
Maya is 58, so she probably doesn't have long left in her. That would leave just Indali as the sole adult cow at Chester, so it's obviously imperative and inevitable that additional cows would have to be acquired whether Chester decides to continue breeding or not.
On Anjan, he is of the age where he will soon be separated, so he shouldn't be an issue.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
If Chester chooses to continue breeding then bringing in new cows is a must imo. Indali has never raised a calf of her own and by the time she would give birth her only support system would be Maya (and that's ONLY if she lives that long), a cow who also has reared no offspring. Trying to breed an inexperienced cow who has gone through the death of practically her entire herd in such a short span is asking for a calf to be rejected or killed.
Ideally, a mother-daugher pair should be brought in and them bred before Indali, giving her a chance to assist in the rearing of calves in a new social structure so that she isn't caught off guard when she her her own calves. Down the road, assuming Indali produces surviving daughters, the two matrilines could be split off to another facility.
Karishma and Elizabeth would be perfect for this, however I do note with Karishma being non breeding, Elizabeth would obviously be the cow that would serve as a 'role model' for Indali. With Elizabeth also being a first time mother, it wouldn't be the best case scenario but considering she has her mother for support and has also been around calves too would certainly help.
Elizabeth and Indali are also of virtually the same age, so if introduced now (when they're still young), they could have a chance to form a bond of some sort which could help in the long term. To accelerate the process, Elizabeth could theoretically fall pregnant too prior to their transfer (she is of age).
I’m surprised no one’s mentioned transferring the mother/daughter pair from Woburn. Is that feasible, as it does seem their long term plans for elephants haven’t materialised as they had wished.