North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation

Yassa said:
Neither Denver nor San Diego has a capacity of 7-8 bulls. Seriously, no zoo in the world can house 8 bulls!
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Denver's stated capacity is 8, whether or not they could actually hold that many is debatable but I'd say it's not horrifically unrealistic. They have pioneered bachelor bull holding techniques and have beat expectations by increasing their herd size slowly over the years. I wouldn't discount their ability to add another bull or two to the facility.
If San Diego has similar holding capacity/techniques they could have similar capacity, but I don't know as much about Elephant Odyssey as Toyota Elephant Passage.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I believe Cadwell and Birmingham are either at capacity or could only bring in one more bull, and that's being generous. Anyone feel free to correct me but I couldve sworn I read that San Diego will be similar to Denver in their capacity of 7-8 bulls. With them sending Sheba out this year and Musi being such a valuable animal they almost doubtlessly will be the facility to turn for bachelor holding.

As for Cadwell and Birmingham sending out any of the bulls anytime soon, I doubt it. Their young boys are not exactly desirable in the least due to their well-represented father, and this value will only decrease if the Safari Park girls are pregnant like many of us suspect. Frankly, I see little reason to send them out when there are bulls like Titian, Musi, Kedar and Samson or even a bull already breeding like Tendaji who would be a stonger candidates for any facility looking for a new bull. Mabu's boys will likely not see the breeding scene for a while now.
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I know in the late 2010's ajani left the birmingham herd for sedgwick when he was 17, and callee left a year later for omaha at 18. Tsavo left his bachelor phase in Disney for reid park just last year at 16. So I think there's no specific rule on when young boys should enter and leave bachelor groups. Mabu Sdudla and Callee are also possible candidates to move to African facilities needing a breeding male soon because they're all proven breeders and produced quite a few calves. Yes Tendaji did naturally produce one calf at Dallas, but since he's lived in Dallas for nearly 10 years now, he should go to another breeding facility soon ( San Diego WAP and Omaha are top choices) then replace him with another breeding bull. I can see them waiting until he impregnates mlilo again before they're confident he can be moved to other zoos to breed. I personally would love it if mac or emanti from caldwell took over when they're ripe for breeding as it's only 100 miles away but realistically it would be either Musi Callee Mabu or Samson. I'm not too sure I kedar would be great to move to other breeding facilities at this point. He did not grow up witnessing true breeding so I'm sure he needs late mentorship first.
 
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The Horse Boy said:
Yes Tendaji did naturally produce one calf at Dallas, but since he's lived in Dallas for nearly 10 years now, he should go to another breeding facility soon ( San Diego WAP and Omaha are top choices) then replace him with another breeding bull. I can see them waiting until he impregnates mlilo again before they're confident he can be moved to other zoos to breed. I personally would love it if mac or emanti from caldwell took over when they're ripe for breeding
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Dallas has very little reason to move Tendaji when he has only sired a single calf at the facility, and no daughters with Mlilo. I'd say it's plausible they let him sire a few more calves at Dallas (at least) before moving him. They certianly wouldn't be keen to send him out if a modest value Mabu son would be the replacement. Though I'm still doubtful any of them will be breeding for the forseeable future since Mabu is still very much active in the breeding scene and doesn't appear to be stopping anytime soon.
Pretty much any other young bull in the nation would be better choices than them when the time comes, but I wouldn't anticipate Dallas changing bulls for a while.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Dallas has very little reason to move Tendaji when he has only sired a single calf at the facility, and no daughters with Mlilo. I'd say it's plausible they let him sire a few more calves at Dallas (at least) before moving him. They certianly wouldn't be keen to send him out if a modest value Mabu son would be the replacement. Though I'm still doubtful any of them will be breeding for the forseeable future since Mabu is still very much active in the breeding scene and doesn't appear to be stopping anytime soon.
Pretty much any other young bull in the nation would be better choices than them when the time comes, but I wouldn't anticipate Dallas changing bulls for a while.
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You never know if mlilo could be pregnant. I'm sure tendaji mated with her recently. And I don't dallas can manage multiple bulls.
 
The Horse Boy said:
You never know if mlilo could be pregnant. I'm sure tendaji mated with her recently. And I don't dallas can manage multiple bulls.
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No part of my message indicated I didn't think Mlilo is pregnant. In fact, I'm fairly confident she is or will be in short order. The point is that he's just getting started at Dallas and they have little reason to send him out just yet, especially when I'm not too sure any facilities could take him currently.
Dallas has kept multiple bulls in the past, as recently as 2023. They kept young male Ajabu and Tendaji separately. However I'm unsure how their ability to keep multiple bulls relates to what I stated unless you're referring to Okubili, who won't need to be seperated for years yet.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I don't see why they would need or want to. They have a singular breeding cow with no daughters, holding multiple mature bulls is of no need to them.
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Hopefully that can change soon. Would be really nice if mlilo gave birth to healthy cow calves. I also think that's why mabu is staying at Fresno for least a couple years before they do another bull swap. The fresno girls need to produce girl calves sooner or later.
 
How many elephants can Maryland hold maximum? They have a newish 2 acre enclosure with a large barn that could certainly hold a breeding group. But I saw talk here saying they plan on doing bull herds once felix passes.
 
The Horse Boy said:
Glad they're still interested in breeding elephants. I'm sure we'll see an explosive calf birth number when Raja leaves for Columbus later this year and samdrua takes over. All the breedable cows at the facility are Raja'a daughters i thibk
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The three viable females are all Raja's daughters. I'm hopeful Saint Louis has also taken the initiative to AI Maliha who will turn 19 this year. They can't afford to wait until Samundra's arrival for her to conceive.
 
In regards to STL, I do wonder sometimes if they'd actually be a good candidate for a herd split. From all the press I've seen lately - it seems as though they're managing two separate social groups to begin with for reasons unbeknownst to me. With Jade's mother having passed and her seemingly living with Sri and her new calf - it doesn't seem implausible that one set or the other be sent elsewhere. I'm not sure which I'd elect to keep in STL, as both have their pros and cons.
 
HawkAlot said:
In regards to STL, I do wonder sometimes if they'd actually be a good candidate for a herd split. From all the press I've seen lately - it seems as though they're managing two separate social groups to begin with for reasons unbeknownst to me. With Jade's mother having passed and her seemingly living with Sri and her new calf - it doesn't seem implausible that one set or the other be sent elsewhere. I'm not sure which I'd elect to keep in STL, as both have their pros and cons.
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It's possible - although I note that until this point Jade and Jet have only had limited time outside in the main habitats, so it's possible they just haven't had the opportunity to introduce the rest of the herd (aside from Sri) to the young male as of yet. Sri's always been a very maternal female (without having a surviving calf of her own). So she's the best choice to perhaps provide Jade with some support in the meantime.
 
Why do they wait 5 MONTH to let the public see a healthy baby elephant and keep it away for so long from the main habitat and the rest of the herd?!! Seriously, this is ridiculous. In Europe, visitors can usually see a newborn baby elephant within a few days unless there are some severe issues.
 
Yassa said:
Why do they wait 5 MONTH to let the public see a healthy baby elephant and keep it away for so long from the main habitat and the rest of the herd?!! Seriously, this is ridiculous. In Europe, visitors can usually see a newborn baby elephant within a few days unless there are some severe issues.
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I don't believe STL has indoor winter viewing for their elephants to begin with (imo a bit weird), but I get the impression things haven't been as smooth as they're letting on either. I've also found the social splitting to be strange, as that's not how they've done things historically.
 
HawkAlot said:
Pure speculation/wonder... I'm curious to see if at least part of their elephant program will move to the new WildCare Park at some point. Seems an opportune place to build a big, beautiful, new elephant complex eventually... either for their main elephant herd or for bulls/bachelors. Or both! Time will tell.
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This would be a natural next step for the herd and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they chose to move their herd there in the long-run. They really don't have the space to expand their herd past 10ish individuals, and with three viable females it would make ultimate sense to give them the chance to grow their herd as large as possible rather than having to split it anytime their group gets to double digits...
Imo what would make the most sense is moving the breeding group to the WildCare Park and holding bachelors at the main zoo (Like San Diego does).
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
This would be a natural next step for the herd and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they chose to move their herd there in the long-run. They really don't have the space to expand their herd past 10ish individuals, and with three viable females it would make ultimate sense to give them the chance to grow their herd as large as possible rather than having to split it anytime their group gets to double digits...
Imo what would make the most sense is moving the breeding group to the WildCare Park and holding bachelors at the main zoo (Like San Diego does).
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I fully agree! Would allow them to hold more than one bull for breeding as well.
 
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