Don Majeski
Well-Known Member
I would like to know just what it is that they are trying to achieve ?
Prospect Park Zoo Prospect Park Zoo News
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Highlighting a good diversity of animals on a limited footprint and in an engaging way. The only thing I think they should bring back is the Australian Walkabout as there are enough nature play elements as is within the Discovery Trail and the Barn, maybe some additional species here and there, but for what it's worth, really, really solid. I usually pair it with New York Aquarium to get the most out of things.
Don Majeski
Well-Known Member
The WCS institutions have one of the worst representations of Australian mammals of any zoo run by a zoological society .
No monotremes and virtually no marsupials on public display .
No specific Australasian exhibit.
There is no reason that PPZ or CPZ could not exhibit ungulates.
No raptors
None of the WCS facilities exhibit orangutan - I am certain - would be preferred to Japanese macaques or a redundant farmyard exhibit.
I was a child once myself and, I can tell you, I preferred orangutan, tapirs, raptors, clouded leopards to livestock
Don Majeski
Well-Known Member
Nine North American zoos exhibit short beaked echidnas.
Of course , only San Diego Wildlife Park as platypus outside of Australia - although, I am certain, that Japanese zoos- in their lust to exhibit everything just for the sake of exhibiting it - - would pay a millions to do so- so that is out of the question - although the Bronx pioneered in the exhibition of platypus in the late 1940s and 1950s.
But echidnas are obtainable .One thought we would never exhibit Kiwi.
Where there is a will there is a way .
We have no will.
When the zoos were redesigned in the 1930s -as part of depression era WPA projects - the species exhibited reflected the public’s interest .
A zoo can have an eclectic collection but none of the NY zoos exhibits orangutan, either hippo species , few amphibians , very poor raptor exhibits
There is no reason PPZ could not have an indoor, climatically controlled Australian exhibit in the unused building that formerly housed species that could exhibit wombat, cuscus, wallabies, cassowary, cockatoos, phalangers
Don Majeski
Well-Known Member
A pair of narcissisticly motivated egotists can display multiple species of gecko yet PPZ can not have a dormant building devoted to , say, amphibians ?
Where exactly would they do this? CPZ has virtually no spare land on their premises unless they expand the site, which is not going to happen and saying they should take over park land is unrealistic. The ENTIRE reason WCS took over the other facilities in the city was because those other zoos were failing in exhibiting the big species and would have closed down. If people want to see the big ABC animals, they can go to Bronx. These smaller zoos are here to be a resource to the community and give people everyday access to animals. Not every zoo needs to exhibit all the big animals.
Clearly you have forgotten what it was like to be a child. When I go to zoos, the farmyards are without fail almost always the busiest sections of the zoo. Yes, I find them boring and a waste of space as an adult, but kids definitely don't. Barnyard's are often the only way throughout the day kids get to actually interact with the animals and the enthusiasm in these areas shows it. Does this mean there aren't line ups at other exhibits? No, but when there are lineups at other exhibits, the barnyards are typically packed to the rafters.
The species exhibited during this time represented a postage stamp mentality of shove anything we could get are hands on in a cage. At this day and age, the public was interested in anything that was foreign and exotic because travel was not easily attainable for most people and their was no such thing as the internet to make even seeing different things accessible as photos and film only went so far. Saying there was any more "planning" than that is a misrepresentation.
So essentially you just want a postage stamp collection? In another post you said the main purpose of zoos was conservation, so which one is it? Do you want a postage stamp collection or conservation goals? You likely can't have both as a postage stamp collection typically only has 1 or 2 individuals of each species to maximize the number of exhibits/species that can be fit in a limited space, while conservation goals need more space maintain healthy breeding populations.
I mean there is one big reason, money. WCS has struggled with money for years as the city has scaled back their budget and they have had too put money towards repairs after multiple natural disasters in the last 15 years. The New York Aquarium finally fully reopened 10 years after Hurricane Sandy in 2022 and then Prospect Park was hit by a flood. Their is not money in the budget for these type of things and bringing these big animals to the smaller facilities as you advocate would not change financial outlooks. It would like only harm them as there would be more large costly animals to take care of.
In this very thread you have advocated that the zoos shouldn't be reliant on public funds. So what do you want? Them opening new exhibits and bringing in more big, costly animals or them being financially stable on their own? Again, PPZ, CPZ, QZ were handed over to WCS because they were failing at what they were doing before that. You think the best solution is to return to that failing model?
Is there a reason we are attacking the character of these two individuals that have opened the Gecko Gallery? Have you met these two people? It seems a very unfair characterization of two people opening a business, especially if you haven't met them. The one ZooChatter that has reported visiting this place already said he had an "amazing time meeting the owners" so at least his experience doesn't seem to match the characterization you made.
Where exactly is this "dormant building" you speak of? You have made this claim several times in this thread and one other person asked what building you were referring to, but you ignored their question. As far as I am aware, as a regular visit to the PPZ, there are no vacant buildings on the premises. There are several buildings guests don't have regular access to, but these are used for administration and education purposes.
So I ask again, where is the supposedly empty building?
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Don Majeski
Well-Known Member
Don Majeski
Well-Known Member
Your lengthy and impassioned response to my critique of the Prospect Park Zoo deserves, an equally, comprehensive answer which I am not prepared to do till later on in the day.
To address the concluding remark as to,
“Which empty buildings I refer?” I should restate
Your lengthy and impassioned comments to my critiques of the, “City Zoos” - in particular the Prospect Park Zoo- deserves a thoughtful , comprehensive answer which I can address later today.
However let me state that I am equally zealous in my desire for New York City to have the world’s greatest system of zoological parks.
To address, at least , your parting question as to, “Where those buildings are ?”
I should rephrase my statement as not so much as referring to “unused” edifices as misused used or misdirected ones.
The “Conservation Classroom” -which has undergone numerous, non animal bearing incarnations since the zoos renovation, is the primary one.
It forms the outer circle that abuts the former pachyderm facility on its southern end.
That was originally constructed as to connecting facilities housing - though poorly - primates and birds in one building and ungulates (zebra, eland- in my youth) in the other .
It WAS intended to exhibit animals - obviously smaller - though it could housed a number of specimens single specie of medium sized ungulates or primates or carnivores or amphibians -but that never came to fruition.
The other Discovery Center on the North Easter perimeter before one enters the barnyard exhibit.
Also , in closing , I firmly. believe the government - be it federal, state , city or borough should wholeheartedly and generously supports its zoos and aquaria and , one of my primary criticisms, is that they do not support them enough financially.
I also believe that based on the NYC population the membership in both WCS and the Staten Island Zoological Society is disproportionate less than it should be.
That is based on the total lack of civic pride New York residents have for their cultural institutions unless they directly and subjectively relate to them .
I believe that zoos are there to exhibit animals and breed endangered species .
Each NYC zoo shlukd have its unique , autonomous footprint and contribution to zoology.
Zoos must specialize .Queens has primarily a Nearctic collection of indigenous mammals and birds - though it has peripherally expanded into Neo Tropical species - although does not have any thermally controlled indoor exhibits where it could exhibit equatorial species, including reptiles and amphibians . It touted the addition of jaguars - currently not exhibited in any NYC facility ( Though they had been at the previous (WPA) incarnations of PPZ and CPZ) but, this being New York , apathy prevailed and the area- still
another barnyard - where they could have been adequately displayed has not been developed into a neo-tropical facility .
Brooklyn , a borough of 2,600,000 deserves a better zoo that it has.
For the most part the conditions of the WPA zoos were deplorable .The collection was not
The bear dens at the south and north ends of PPZ were fine - to house one species each of bears - NOT six
But no ursids reside at PPZ - not even sloth bears .
A single specie of Panthera could easily be accommodated - and bred at PPZ
And there was a previous barnyard facility (“Children’s Zoo”) at PPZ off the main facility prior to the renovation
before being incorporated into the existing zoo property leaving less room for the main collection.
It was called “Leffert’s Farm” why was that demolished ? It served its purpose well but the incorporation into the existing zoo grounds caused the loss of the bear dens and the exhibition a large “show” animals that would have attracted more people and created more revenue .
In closing OF COURSE it’s money.
But if the attendance were greater there would be more money .
I recall traveling two hours on the subway to attend the only zoo in New York at the time that exhibited black rhinoceros, Asiatic black bear , jaguar and, subsequent to the CPZ zoo renovation, Nile hippos. There are none today.
PPZ could certainly house Pygmy hippo or Baird’s tapir in the farmyard area
The Discovery Trail - now, primarily a playground , could be converted into an Orangutan exhibit - incorporating the “Conservation Classroom” as the indoor housing with some expansion and renovation.
WCS is sorely in membership among the citizens of New York City .
I would venture to guess that the majority of their members live in the suburbs and not the city - despite its 8,300,000 residents
I am glad your are passionate in your defense of the facility . I am as well. I just want it to be a better one.
I do remember being a child and going to that absurd “Children’s Zoo” in the Bronx with its Mother Goose and Three Kittle Pig exhibits and, I must tell you - as a lifelong zoo fan- I was far more impressed with the site of Bornean orangutans, Forest elephants , Giant otters , Goliath frogs and Emperor penguins than I was comes, chickens and hamsters in a spinning wheel
To address the concluding remark as to,
“Which empty buildings I refer?” I should restate
Your lengthy and impassioned comments to my critiques of the, “City Zoos” - in particular the Prospect Park Zoo- deserves a thoughtful , comprehensive answer which I can address later today.
However let me state that I am equally zealous in my desire for New York City to have the world’s greatest system of zoological parks.
To address, at least , your parting question as to, “Where those buildings are ?”
I should rephrase my statement as not so much as referring to “unused” edifices as misused used or misdirected ones.
The “Conservation Classroom” -which has undergone numerous, non animal bearing incarnations since the zoos renovation, is the primary one.
It forms the outer circle that abuts the former pachyderm facility on its southern end.
That was originally constructed as to connecting facilities housing - though poorly - primates and birds in one building and ungulates (zebra, eland- in my youth) in the other .
It WAS intended to exhibit animals - obviously smaller - though it could housed a number of specimens single specie of medium sized ungulates or primates or carnivores or amphibians -but that never came to fruition.
The other Discovery Center on the North Easter perimeter before one enters the barnyard exhibit.
Also , in closing , I firmly. believe the government - be it federal, state , city or borough should wholeheartedly and generously supports its zoos and aquaria and , one of my primary criticisms, is that they do not support them enough financially.
I also believe that based on the NYC population the membership in both WCS and the Staten Island Zoological Society is disproportionate less than it should be.
That is based on the total lack of civic pride New York residents have for their cultural institutions unless they directly and subjectively relate to them .
I believe that zoos are there to exhibit animals and breed endangered species .
Each NYC zoo shlukd have its unique , autonomous footprint and contribution to zoology.
Zoos must specialize .Queens has primarily a Nearctic collection of indigenous mammals and birds - though it has peripherally expanded into Neo Tropical species - although does not have any thermally controlled indoor exhibits where it could exhibit equatorial species, including reptiles and amphibians . It touted the addition of jaguars - currently not exhibited in any NYC facility ( Though they had been at the previous (WPA) incarnations of PPZ and CPZ) but, this being New York , apathy prevailed and the area- still
another barnyard - where they could have been adequately displayed has not been developed into a neo-tropical facility .
Brooklyn , a borough of 2,600,000 deserves a better zoo that it has.
For the most part the conditions of the WPA zoos were deplorable .The collection was not
The bear dens at the south and north ends of PPZ were fine - to house one species each of bears - NOT six
But no ursids reside at PPZ - not even sloth bears .
A single specie of Panthera could easily be accommodated - and bred at PPZ
And there was a previous barnyard facility (“Children’s Zoo”) at PPZ off the main facility prior to the renovation
before being incorporated into the existing zoo property leaving less room for the main collection.
It was called “Leffert’s Farm” why was that demolished ? It served its purpose well but the incorporation into the existing zoo grounds caused the loss of the bear dens and the exhibition a large “show” animals that would have attracted more people and created more revenue .
In closing OF COURSE it’s money.
But if the attendance were greater there would be more money .
I recall traveling two hours on the subway to attend the only zoo in New York at the time that exhibited black rhinoceros, Asiatic black bear , jaguar and, subsequent to the CPZ zoo renovation, Nile hippos. There are none today.
PPZ could certainly house Pygmy hippo or Baird’s tapir in the farmyard area
The Discovery Trail - now, primarily a playground , could be converted into an Orangutan exhibit - incorporating the “Conservation Classroom” as the indoor housing with some expansion and renovation.
WCS is sorely in membership among the citizens of New York City .
I would venture to guess that the majority of their members live in the suburbs and not the city - despite its 8,300,000 residents
I am glad your are passionate in your defense of the facility . I am as well. I just want it to be a better one.
I do remember being a child and going to that absurd “Children’s Zoo” in the Bronx with its Mother Goose and Three Kittle Pig exhibits and, I must tell you - as a lifelong zoo fan- I was far more impressed with the site of Bornean orangutans, Forest elephants , Giant otters , Goliath frogs and Emperor penguins than I was comes, chickens and hamsters in a spinning wheel
I do want to point out that Prospect Park has 3 species of deer, which given the state of deer populations in American zoos is a lot. They have pudu, tufted deer, and reeves muntjac so not a shabby lineup for the zoo and species that most definitely work in the limited space.
Don Majeski
Well-Known Member
That, in of itself, is excellent news
Alright, so no empty, unused buildings as you claimed, but instead buildings you wish were utilized in different ways. I wish lots of buildings were utilized differently at plenty of zoos, but these buildings are serving a valuable purpose. Honestly, a whole lot of your arguments or criticisms here are basically about what you wish the zoo would have done instead, wishing they had animals that you specifically view as "better", and you pining for the old days of postage stamp collections. Those days are gone, they weren't sustainable at PPZ, CPZ, and QZ, and is exactly why they were handed over to WCS.
You use this argument repeatedly, that because a building "was originally constructed" as animal housing facilities it should still be used for that purpose, even though you acknowledge that the animals that were held there were housed in poor conditions. I am struggling to see where the disconnect lies here for you?
The reason those buildings no longer house animals are because they are no longer suitable for doing so by today's standards. Sure, maybe if they invest a lot of money into renovating the building it could house one or two species still, but is that worth the cost?
I'm guessing WCS has done much more research into this than you or me and they have determined that the cost is not worth it. Unless you have actual hard evidence that somehow spending that money for this purpose would be beneficial for the zoos in the long run instead of pointing at the history of a bygone era, you are going to have a hard time convincing me or anyone else that these buildings should be used differently than they are today.
The purpose of buildings change at many zoos repeatedly throughout their history, while others end up abandoned because the upkeep costs are too much, but it's "historic" so we can't tear it down. I for one am glad that these buildings are still able to serve a purpose.
I think just about every person on this site likely agrees with this and supports it. However, this just doesn't fit with the realities of running a zoo today. Many major zoos throughout the US have had financial struggles over the past 20 years as they have had to deal with the realities of less government funding. The tax burden on New York City residents is already one of the highest in the country and asking them to just suck it up and show some civic pride doesn't really mesh with the reality of the situation.
Also, having moved to NYC from one of two states that have a state owned zoo, it is really hard getting funding passed at the state level for what amounts to being a local institution/benefit to citizens. While of course these conversations come up in all aspects of budgetary spending, why should a state representative from Buffalo vote for funding for a zoo 6+ hours away that isn't going to serve their constituents? Buffalo has it's own zoo to fund.
It's a great sentiment that you wish their was more government funding for these zoos, but again your argument largely amounts to this is something you want and other people should see it the same way as you instead of funding other cultural institutions with that same money.
As neither of these zoos release any sort of membership statistics, this amounts to nothing more than a "belief". You or I have no idea how many people are members of these zoos. I can just as easily say "WCS and the Staten Island Zoological Society have way more members than they should."
The truth is neither of us has any idea and we are making things up.
As some one that has lived in multiple major cities throughout my life and traveled extensively, I have to thoroughly disagree with you here. New York residents have way more civic pride than just about anywhere else I can think of. The problem I see here, as with much of your argument, is that people aren't showing it in the way you would like them to and by supporting the institutions that you would like them to.
People have way more options here in NYC on cultural institutions that they can potentially attend and support. Because of that, NYC has a landscape that is very hard to compete in for funding when you are a cultural institution. This is one of the things that makes this city great! The fact that there is something for everyone.
Do I wish everyone supported the zoo in the same way that I do? Yes! But again that isn't very grounded in the reality of today's world. Look at other major "global" cities (London, Berlin, Paris, etc.) there zoos have faced these same realities.
Great! They definitely are there to serve both these purposes, but in order to have stable, healthy, and successful breeding populations in zoos, they have had to cut back on the number of species they exhibit. Again, we seem to have some disconnect here in the fact that all zoos have had to cut back on species (especially larger species) in order to commit themselves to breeding of sustainable captive populations. This is not just a WCS thing, it's a worldwide zoo thing.
As others have said, the entire reorganization plan of PPZ, CPZ, and QZ into WCS was making sure they each had their own unique footprint and specialty, and they all succeed at this. Again, what this seems to come down to is that you don't like how this was done or agree with the focuses of each of the zoos. A lot of it also appears your main gripe is "there should be more". Well again, the economic realities disagree with you.
Every zoo out there has a graveyard of masterplans and exhibits that never came to fruition because the money just never materialized. This is not unique to the WCS zoos as you seem to want to believe and not due to this New York apathy you speak of.
I would agree with you if Brooklyn was it's own city and separated by some distance from another major zoo. The fact is it's not. I live in Brooklyn. It takes me 20 minutes to get to the PPZ by car and 35-40 minutes to get to one of the best zoos in the country in the Bronx.
Again, if Brooklyn was all by its lonesome with no other zoo in site, yes PPZ is to small of a zoo for what would amount to the fourth largest city in the US. But it's not! It has a major zoo easily accessible. More than that, it has a major zoo that is accessible by public transit (although granted, that can be time consuming), which can not be said for most of the major zoos in this country.
To extend on this, there are a TON of options within a two hour drive for people looking to go to a zoo. From my apartment right now, I can get to the following zoos and aquariums in two hours or less: Bronx Zoo, Prospect Park Zoo, Queens Zoo, Staten Island Zoo, Central Park Zoo, New York Aquarium, Turtle Back Zoo, Bergen County Zoo, Jenkinson's Aquarium, Adventure Aquarium, Philadelphia Zoo, Elmwood Park Zoo, Connecticut's Beardsley Zoo, Space Farms Zoo & Museum, Sea Life New Jersey, Long Island Aquarium, Maritime Aquarium at Norwalk, Bear Mountain Trailside Museum & Zoo, Trevor Zoo.
Those are just off the top of my head. Traffic can play a role, but my point is, there are a lot of options in and around NYC if you want something different.
Once again, every zoo in the entire country has scaled back their collection in order to fix these living conditions that were "deplorable." You essentially want it both ways and the reality is that you can't.
I mean, this shouldn't have to be said and again it is a nice sentiment, but that is easier said than done. In general, the idea of "bringing in more species will bring in more guests" doesn't really hold out in the long run unless you are able to significantly increase the number of species a zoo is able to hold and the only way to do that is by increasing the physical size of the zoo.
New exhibits will generate excitement and bring in more visitors for a year or two, but in general visitor numbers tend to return to around where they were pre-new exhibit/species unless the exhibit actually expanded the physical footprint of the zoo.
We are again mostly just pining for the days of old here without much recognition of the present. Again, the reality is every zoo out there is scaling back species, especially the bigger species like you mentioned here.
Sure, the Bronx doesn't have Black Rhinoceros anymore, but they do have both White and Indian Rhinos. That's two more species than the entire state of Minnesota had when I was growing up as a kid. The nearest Rhinos to me growing up were 4-5 hours away in Madison, WI or Des Moines, IA.
Like most of the species you mentioned, Black Rhinos are a species that just isn't that common in zoos anymore as just 31 US zoos have them.
Asiatic Black Bear is a species that is almost entirely gone in the US at this point and even more so from AZA zoos. Just 3 AZA zoos still hold the species and only 14 zoos in the US in total. The species is going away largely due to a lack of success in breeding.
Nile Hippos are the same way because of the space and facilities a zoo needs to properly house them. The US is down to just 28 holders of Nile Hippos.
Jaguar don't have this same problem, but as stated previously, not every zoo is going to hold every "big" species.
The decreasing numbers of black rhinos, Asiatic black bears, and Nile hippos as whole is a choice by zoos, specifically the AZA, as they have decided to phase out these species in order to free space to maintain healthy breeding populations of others. Asiatic black bears are being phased out in order to open up more room for the other bear species in captivity so that they can thrive. It's a choice made by zoos throughout the US as they work together to make zoo populations sustainable, not just the choice of WCS.
They certainly could, but that is again you wishing they did something else with the space. Barnyard's are one of the most engaging areas of the zoos for visitors and additionally bring in extra money past the admission fee as people pay to feed the animals, ride them, etc. They aren't going anywhere.
Again, the amount money to make this a reality is likely not worth it and won't lead to the substantial increase in visitors or memberships you think it will.
You have zero numbers to back this up other than your own "belief" as stated above. Until you do have more evidence than your belief, I and no one else have any reason to believe it.
Honestly, I am not that passionate about this facility. I think it is a nice little zoo with a pretty unique collection focus and that it serves its purpose well, but I also don't expect it to be more than it is as you seem to do.
The reasons I am willing to defend it is that I view most of your criticisms of it as unjustified, uninformed, and not backed up by the reality of what the zoo landscape is today.
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On June 20th, the zoo announced that a female (0.1) North American porcupine was born on February 3rd, which is on exhibit.
Prospect Park Zoo
On July 10th, the zoo announced that 2 trumpeter swans hatched, which are on exhibit.
Prospect Park Zoo
On September 5th, it was announced that the zoo acquired a male (1.0) white-faced saki from Los Angeles Zoo in California.
https://lazoo.org/wp-content/upload...nsaction-Commission-Report-September-2025.pdf
Prospect Park Zoo
On July 10th, the zoo announced that 2 trumpeter swans hatched, which are on exhibit.
Prospect Park Zoo
On September 5th, it was announced that the zoo acquired a male (1.0) white-faced saki from Los Angeles Zoo in California.
https://lazoo.org/wp-content/upload...nsaction-Commission-Report-September-2025.pdf
Haliaeetus
Well-Known Member
As neat as this is for PPZ, it does look like Franklin Park Zoo is phasing-out this highly endangered species that they once were breeding. Ideally the WCS would source a male for Svetlana, but I fear that won't happen.
~Thylo
Mary
Well-Known Member
Yes, I have thought about this, too. I'm not sure what the plans are. I was just very happy to see Svet again as I was lucky enough to go behind the scenes at Franklin Park last year and see the Siberian cranes, and she was of course amongst them! A really charismatic species with some of the most entertaining vocalizations of all the cranes. Their little beeps are too cute!
Don Majeski
Well-Known Member
Any addition to the Prospect Park Zoo is to be celebrated. Hopefully, than acquire a roan from Baraboo, perhaps