Australasian Orangutan Population

[ApeLadyNZ]

My only criticism of Auckland’s South East Asian ape complex is that despite the modern features, it only caters to a single grouping of orangutans (on exhibit). Had an integration with the Siamang been possible, then it would be possible to hold them across two exhibits; but it’s clear any relationship with the Siamang will be tenuous at best should an integration ever be achieved.

Having both exhibits available to orangutans would enable them to manage at least three groupings (factoring in the off display dens). This would enable them to retain Auckland bred infants into adolescence/young adulthood and hold a larger colony overall. For comparison, the previous colony (which peaked at nine orangutans between the years 2005-2009) was held in three groupings - with Horst, Charlie and Isim all kept seperate.

Yes, all very good points. If Auckland Zoo decides to keep on with siamang and to retain Intan and Kera rather than obtaining a breeding pair, it would indeed be a tenuous relationship. Things might be different if a new pair of siamang were acquired; not every animal has the same temperament and a new siamang pair might not have the tendency to antagonize the orangutans as Intan does. Another pair of siamang may be able to be successfully integrated with the orangutans, and a siamang infant might even be another future playmate for the orangutan youngsters!

I would very much like to see an expanded orangutan exhibit similar to what Auckland once had, especially with Auckland now being the only Australasian holder of Bornean orangutans.

 

[Zoofan15]

Yes, all very good points. If Auckland Zoo decides to keep on with siamang and to retain Intan and Kera rather than obtaining a breeding pair, it would indeed be a tenuous relationship. Things might be different if a new pair of siamang were acquired; not every animal has the same temperament and a new siamang pair might not have the tendency to antagonize the orangutans as Intan does. Another pair of siamang may be able to be successfully integrated with the orangutans, and a siamang infant might even be another future playmate for the orangutan youngsters!

I would very much like to see an expanded orangutan exhibit similar to what Auckland once had, especially with Auckland now being the only Australasian holder of Bornean orangutans.

I’m inclined to say even with a new pair of Siamang, the personalities might not align for them to form a cohesive long term relationship with the orangutans. In any case, it’s not something the zoo can rely on with regards to housing arrangements.

I really think there’s benefit in building a new Siamang exhibit - either adjacent to the orangutans where the red pandas are; or housing them in the old tiger exhibit. It’s not necessarily something that needs to happen imminently. Breeding from Melur and Daya once more (three young orangutans) would be more than sufficient with regards to creating an engaging exhibit for the time being; and there’s every indication the current housing arrangement could remain as it is until the young males (assuming at least one of the proposed infants are male) are adolescents.

 

[ApeLadyNZ]

I’m inclined to say even with a new pair of Siamang, the personalities might not align for them to form a cohesive long term relationship with the orangutans. In any case, it’s not something the zoo can rely on with regards to housing arrangements.

I really think there’s benefit in building a new Siamang exhibit - either adjacent to the orangutans where the red pandas are; or housing them in the old tiger exhibit. It’s not necessarily something that needs to happen imminently. Breeding from Melur and Daya once more (three young orangutans) would be more than sufficient with regards to creating an engaging exhibit for the time being; and there’s every indication the current housing arrangement could remain as it is until the young males (assuming at least one of the proposed infants are male) are adolescents.

I like the idea of a new siamang exhibit, although it would take some altering of the aerial pathways to allow access both to orangutans and siamang at alternate times.

Personally speaking, my long-term dream is to see a larger orangutan colony and I do think they would need both ape exhibits to be able to pull that off.

 

[Zoofan15]

I like the idea of a new siamang exhibit, although it would take some altering of the aerial pathways to allow access both to orangutans and siamang at alternate times.

Personally speaking, my long-term dream is to see a larger orangutan colony and I do think they would need both ape exhibits to be able to pull that off.

If they’re not gonna put the old Sumatran tiger exhibit (2006-2019) to better use than geriatric lemurs (which could easily be housed off display), then they might as well renovate it for the Siamang. With ropes for brachiation etc. this would provide adequate accomodation for a non-breeding pair.

Siamang would still be retained within the South East Asia precinct, so the only loss to the public is not seeing them on the aerial line. If that enables the public to see an expanded (regularly breeding) orangutan colony, such a ‘loss’ will be recouped ten-fold.

It would be preferable to have the capacity to accomodate Auckland bred orangutans into adolescence/young adulthood (or until they’re needed for breeding), though with genetically valuable orangutans, I struggle to see them needing to do so for long (i.e. they will be wanted elsewhere for breeding).

 

[ApeLadyNZ]

If they’re not gonna put the old Sumatran tiger exhibit (2006-2019) to better use than geriatric lemurs (which could easily be housed off display), then they might as well renovate it for the Siamang. With ropes for brachiation etc. this would provide adequate accomodation for a non-breeding pair.

Siamang would still be retained within the South East Asia precinct, so the only loss to the public is not seeing them on the aerial line. If that enables the public to see an expanded (regularly breeding) orangutan colony, such a ‘loss’ will be recouped ten-fold.

It would be preferable to have the capacity to accomodate Auckland bred orangutans into adolescence/young adulthood (or until they’re needed for breeding), though with genetically valuable orangutans, I struggle to see them needing to do so for long (i.e. they will be wanted elsewhere for breeding).

Very good points. I do hope there is some reappraisal of the role of siamang at Auckland Zoo - as much as I love them, I don't see our non-breeding pair as a necessity, particularly as several other zoos in NZ are successfully breeding siamang or intending to.

My fondest hope is that Bahmi will be retained as Auckland's breeding male when the sad day finally comes for Charlie to pass away - he already has a strong bond with Daya, so it makes a lot of sense (Melur will no doubt be put on contraception and retired from the breeding programme, hopefully after having borne one more infant to Charlie). So, it will be Bahmi's future siblings and descendants who would be accommodated like you've described until the time comes for them to be sent elsewhere for breeding.

 

[Zoofan15]

Very good points. I do hope there is some reappraisal of the role of siamang at Auckland Zoo - as much as I love them, I don't see our non-breeding pair as a necessity, particularly as several other zoos in NZ are successfully breeding siamang or intending to.

My fondest hope is that Bahmi will be retained as Auckland's breeding male when the sad day finally comes for Charlie to pass away - he already has a strong bond with Daya, so it makes a lot of sense (Melur will no doubt be put on contraception and retired from the breeding programme, hopefully after having borne one more infant to Charlie). So, it will be Bahmi's future siblings and descendants who would be accommodated like you've described until the time comes for them to be sent elsewhere for breeding.

If Charlie breeds with Melur and Daya in the next year or two, it would tie in nicely with Bahmi reaching the age we could expect to see him sire infants (10-12 years), following on 5-7 years after the birth of Daya’s first infant to Charlie. It would overall be a seamless transition from Charlie to Bahmi as breeding male.

To lose Charlie before Daya can produce her first infant would be disastrous. Though male orangutans don’t acknowledge paternity in the way gorillas (or to an extent, chimpanzees) do, there’s no doubt Charlie is a model male orangutan in terms of his gentleness with the females and Bahmi (and Madju before him). I’d hate to see the zoo have to bring in a new male and risk trying to integrate him with the others; or Daya waiting a further 7-9 years until she can breed (because they don’t want to bring in a new male) - all of which can be avoided by permitting Daya to breed her and now. She’s an adult female of 13 years; she’s well settled into the colony; and has had more than sufficient experience in observing the raising of young. There’s no need to delay.

 

[ApeLadyNZ]

If Charlie breeds with Melur and Daya in the next year or two, it would tie in nicely with Bahmi reaching the age we could expect to see him sire infants (10-12 years), following on 5-7 years after the birth of Daya’s first infant to Charlie. It would overall be a seamless transition from Charlie to Bahmi as breeding male.

To lose Charlie before Daya can produce her first infant would be disastrous. Though male orangutans don’t acknowledge paternity in the way gorillas (or to an extent, chimpanzees) do, there’s no doubt Charlie is a model male orangutan in terms of his gentleness with the females and Bahmi (and Madju before him). I’d hate to see the zoo have to bring in a new male and risk trying to integrate him with the others; or Daya waiting a further 7-9 years until she can breed (because they don’t want to bring in a new male) - all of which can be avoided by permitting Daya to breed her and now. She’s an adult female of 13 years; she’s well settled into the colony; and has had more than sufficient experience in observing the raising of young. There’s no need to delay.

Very good points indeed. It would be an ideal time to begin the process of breeding from Daya, and on my most recent visit, I did wonder if Daya was off contraception and cycling as Charlie did seem to be paying attention to her (usually, when not off being solitary, he shows a much stronger preference for Melur).

It would be, in my opinion, an undesirable option to transfer out Bahmi and try to integrate a new male further down the line. Having tragically lost Bako, Daya's former home of Ouwenhands Dierenpark are likely to take the option of transferring out their male adolescent, Sabar, and bring in a new male to breed with Jewel and Tjintha (and, eventually in the future, Minggu). But I don't see Auckland wanting to breed from Melur again by the time Bahmi is an adolescent and it would make more sense for Auckland to keep Bahmi and bring in a new female.

 

[Zoofan15]

Very good points indeed. It would be an ideal time to begin the process of breeding from Daya, and on my most recent visit, I did wonder if Daya was off contraception and cycling as Charlie did seem to be paying attention to her (usually, when not off being solitary, he shows a much stronger preference for Melur).

It would be, in my opinion, an undesirable option to transfer out Bahmi and try to integrate a new male further down the line. Having tragically lost Bako, Daya's former home of Ouwenhands Dierenpark are likely to take the option of transferring out their male adolescent, Sabar, and bring in a new male to breed with Jewel and Tjintha (and, eventually in the future, Minggu). But I don't see Auckland wanting to breed from Melur again by the time Bahmi is an adolescent and it would make more sense for Auckland to keep Bahmi and bring in a new female.

I too can imagine another female being brought in, so that Bahmi has two females to breed with. Like you say, it’s unlikely Melur will have any more than one more infant unless her next pregnancy yields twins. Considering she’s an older mother with previous births and twins in her maternal line, it’s not beyond the realms.

I like how effort was put into sourcing a female (Daya), who was not only genetically suitable as a match for Charlie, but compatible with Melur. They’re very similar personality wise and these traits would have been evident in the younger female when she was imported as an adolescent. Many zoos house small groups (or even pairs of orangutans) and are better equipped to manage introverted, less social females either alone; with a male; or their eventual offspring than Auckland Zoo, who hold a colony.

Bar the predictable requirement of separating Horst and Charlie from each other as the former reached adolescence, Auckland’s initial colony was very cohesive, with Dara and Indra maintaining a good relationship into adulthood and Dara cohabiting with Indra’s offspring, Intan and Isim, without issue.

 

[Jambo]

If they’re not gonna put the old Sumatran tiger exhibit (2006-2019) to better use than geriatric lemurs (which could easily be housed off display), then they might as well renovate it for the Siamang. With ropes for brachiation etc. this would provide adequate accomodation for a non-breeding pair.

Siamang would still be retained within the South East Asia precinct, so the only loss to the public is not seeing them on the aerial line. If that enables the public to see an expanded (regularly breeding) orangutan colony, such a ‘loss’ will be recouped ten-fold.

It would be preferable to have the capacity to accomodate Auckland bred orangutans into adolescence/young adulthood (or until they’re needed for breeding), though with genetically valuable orangutans, I struggle to see them needing to do so for long (i.e. they will be wanted elsewhere for breeding).

I would also like to see the old Sumatran Tiger enclosure put to better use going forward. I like the idea of moving the non breeding pair of Saimang here. The exhibit provides great height and opportunities for brachiation - but perhaps the only down side is the lack of proper elevated viewing.

This could easily be achieved with an elevated viewing platform being built on the site of the old Otter enclosure which could give elevated views into both that enclosure and the next door Red Panda exhibit.

 

[Zoofan15]

Both Gorillas and Orangs would benefit from more holders in the region until then I believe both species will struggle in the short and long term management

Breeding of Sumatran orangutan has well and truly stagnated, with no births since 2012:

- Sydney Zoo have a retired breeding pair
- Adelaide have a non-breeding pair
- Melbourne have a single male (Sumatran)
- Perth are on breeding hiatus

Perth’s new orangutan complex can’t come soon enough as breeding is on hold until it’s completed. There’s been discussions around transferring Kluet (Adelaide’s genetically valuable male) across as their female isn’t bonded to him and is past breeding age.

An expansion of Melbourne’s facilities (speculated to come with the redevelopment of the elephant paddocks) would enable them to acquire a female Sumatran orangutan and breed. An import from overseas would be great; but since Perth has more females than it can manage the breeding of, it wouldn’t be surprising to see one transfer across from there instead.

 

[Zorro]

Breeding of Sumatran orangutan has well and truly stagnated, with no births since 2012:

- Sydney Zoo have a retired breeding pair
- Adelaide have a non-breeding pair
- Melbourne have a single male (Sumatran)
- Perth are on breeding hiatus

Perth’s new orangutan complex can’t come soon enough as breeding is on hold until it’s completed. There’s been discussions around transferring Kluet (Adelaide’s genetically valuable male) across as their female isn’t bonded to him and is past breeding age.

An expansion of Melbourne’s facilities (speculated to come with the redevelopment of the elephant paddocks) would enable them to acquire a female Sumatran orangutan and breed. An import from overseas would be great; but since Perth has more females than it can manage the breeding of, it wouldn’t be surprising to see one transfer across from there instead.

Perhaps it's time for a round table conference with all the holders about the way forward with the great apes within the region!

 

[Zoofan15]

Perhaps it's time for a round table conference with all the holders about the way forward with the great apes within the region!

It was fascinating seeing the outcome of the discussions from the Australasian Primate Conference in 1991, as one of the suggestions was to manage the breeding of Bornean orangutans in New Zealand; and Sumatran orangutans in Australia.

Taronga briefly diverted from this to acquire Bornean orangutans. It’s not clear if Orana (planned to acquire chimpanzees) also had plans to join the Bornean orangutan programme and when that was canned, Taronga stepped up; or whether Taronga’s decision to acquire Borneans was independent of that. They were clearly keen to streamline their colony of hybrids to purebred something; but the new exhibit afforded them no room to manage breeding with so many hybrids still on site. All moot of course since they phased out Borneans; acquired a Sumatran: and then phased out orangutans altogether.

 

[Pertinax]

- Melbourne have a single male (Sumatran)

Very surprised to discover this. They always seemed to do quite well with them. What happened?

 

[Zoofan15]

Very surprised to discover this. They always seemed to do quite well with them. What happened?

Melbourne’s exhibit isn’t well equipped to manage multiple groupings. When Malu (their male) became unable to be housed with his father, they were separated. At this time, they also had two mother-daughter pairs (hybrids Kiani and Gabby; and Sumatrans Maimunah and Dewi).

Since Santan, Maimunah and their daughter Dewi were a cohesive trio, they were the natural choice to transfer to Sydney Zoo. I expect the parents will live out their lives there and at some point, they’ll acquire a new male when Santan passes to pair with Dewi (perhaps Sungai from Perth).

Their departure left Melbourne with 1.2, with the two hybrids females housed separately towards the end (Kiani had arthritis and could be intolerant of her daughter). Kiani has since died, so their holdings are currently 1.1 (Sumatran male and hybrid female).

Melbourne Zoo:

Sumatran orangutan:

1.0 Malu (29/07/2003) Santan x Maimunah

Hybrid orangutan:

0.1 Gabby (01/01/1990) Santan x Kiani

Sydney Zoo:

Sumatran orangutan:

1.0 Santan (12/10/1977) Mias x Puppe; Imported 1987
0.1 Maimunah (23/05/1986) Pongo x Timor
0.1 Dewi (06/12/2010) Santan x Maimunah

 

[Zorro]

It was fascinating seeing the outcome of the discussions from the Australasian Primate Conference in 1991, as one of the suggestions was to manage the breeding of Bornean orangutans in New Zealand; and Sumatran orangutans in Australia.

Taronga briefly diverted from this to acquire Bornean orangutans. It’s not clear if Orana (planned to acquire chimpanzees) also had plans to join the Bornean orangutan programme and when that was canned, Taronga stepped up; or whether Taronga’s decision to acquire Borneans was independent of that. They were clearly keen to streamline their colony of hybrids to purebred something; but the new exhibit afforded them no room to manage breeding with so many hybrids still on site. All moot of course since they phased out Borneans; acquired a Sumatran: and then phased out orangutans altogether.

Its really hard to follow what they do perhaps part of it could be changing directors of a time period

 

[Zoofan15]

Its really hard to follow what they do perhaps part of it could be changing directors of a time period

I agree that seems likely.

These are Taronga’s Directors/CEO’s during that time period and the changes to the zoo’s orangutan holdings that occurred during that time:

John Kelly (1987-1997):

Breeding of hybrids ceased
Export of some hybrids to India
Construction of new orangutan exhibit
Import of Borneans
Retention of some hybrids

Guy Cooper (1998-2009):

Phase out of Borneans
Import of Sumatran
Phase out of Sumatran
Retention of hybrids

Cameron Kerr (2009-):

Phase out of orangutans

 

[Zorro]

I agree that seems likely.

These are Taronga’s Directors/CEO’s during that time period and the changes to the zoo’s orangutan holdings that occurred during that time:

John Kelly (1987-1998):

Breeding of hybrids ceased
Export of some hybrids to India
Construction of new orangutan exhibit
Import of Borneans
Retention of some hybrids

Guy Cooper (1998-2009):

Phase out of Borneans
Import of Sumatran
Phase out of Sumatran
Retention of hybrids

Cameron Kerr (2009-):

Phase out of orangutans

In my view I believe that the late great John Kelly had a big positive impact on Taronga zoo also one can add that he imported a whole Gorilla troop from Holland and was behind the importation of the black rhino imports from South Africa!

 

[Zoofan15]

In my view I believe that the late John Kelly had a big positive impact on Taronga zoo also one can add that he imported a whole Gorilla troop from Holland and was behind the importation of the black rhino imports from South Africa!

John Kelly was a phenomenal director by all accounts. It seemed everyone who worked with him had a very positive opinion of him and like you say, he got a lot done. With the chimpanzees moving to the Chimpanzee Park in 1980, the orangutans had the run of the cage block; but it was outdated accomodation and far from the image of the modern zoo.

The opening of Taronga’s Orangutan Rainforest in 1994 was in line with the regional shift towards immersive exhibits; though thinking critically, it aged poorly due to its size and was soon regarded as outdated compared to other orangutan exhibits in the region such as Auckland Zoo’s Orangutan Park, which had opened seven years prior.

 

[Zorro]

John Kelly was a phenomenal director by all accounts. It seemed everyone who worked with him had a very positive opinion of him and like you say, he got a lot done. With the chimpanzees moving to the Chimpanzee Park in 1980, the orangutans had the run of the cage block; but it was outdated accomodation and far from the image of the modern zoo.

The opening of Taronga’s Orangutan Rainforest in 1994 was in line with the regional shift towards immersive exhibits; though thinking critically, it aged poorly due to its size and was soon regarded as outdated compared to other orangutan exhibits in the region such as Auckland Zoo’s Orangutan Park, which had opened seven years prior.

The accomodation of the Chimpanzees, Orangs and Gorillas "cages" were perhaps the worse I had seen (1977) I was shocked that a major zoo kept great apes in such sub-standard housing. they were basically a concrete box with thick steel bars on one side!

 

[ApeLadyNZ]

With the birth of a new chimpanzee baby at Hamilton, and with Chiku and Kendi bound to transfer out in a few years, I'm wondering what the dispersal patterns are usually like for orangutans and what this will mean for Auckland Zoo.

Since Daya was imported, it looks as though either males or females can be transferred as the breeding programme requires. I personally hope to see Bahmi retained as breeding male, since there is a future possibility of Bahmi x Daya (as I've mentioned before, these two share a similar older female/younger male age gap as Madju and Luna in Florida). and a new female could also be sourced for Bahmi while Melur would be retired from the breeding programme.

I've heard it's often harder to place males overseas, although Bahmi would still be desirable due to his genetic value, and I personally believe that the best scenario for when Charlie passes on would be for Bahmi to eventually breed with Daya - an infant born to those two would also be very genetically valuable - and import another female.

Whereas with Daya's previous colony in the Netherlands, it would make more sense to transfer out Daya's younger brother, Sabar - he is a genetically valuable male, and any zoo would happily take him - and import a new male to breed with Jewel and Tjintha (and Minggu when she is of age).