The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
I know Willie at Cleveland was regarded as the tallest captive African bull in the states until his death 2 summers ago.
North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation
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The Horse Boy
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Do keep in mind that Memphis' first phase of the new master plan involves a significant overhaul of the African Veldt area including a world class elephant habitat for breeding herds as well as much better rhino antelope zebra and giraffe enclosures a giraffe feeding area and an African safari style guest lodge, which should break ground in a year or two at least. A few news articles published over it a year ago now and there's one from 3 months ago that confirms they're in the middle of raising funds for the project and it's on their budget that was posted on the 2025 news thread. The question now is will they keep their 5 older girls for the rest of their lives and possibly house all them alongside a martiline split and a breeding bull or will they send all 5 to TES to make way for younger herds.
Memphis Zoo Plans $250M Investment In Campus Upgrades
State commits $20M for Memphis Zoo expansion
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I wonder if they are planning to demolish many buildings to make room for this? Or build into the parking lot. Since they are land locked. The entire zoo is built like multiple figure 8 with the exhibits in the middle of the circles. The elephants are outside of the 8 in a far area from the entrance. Many of the exhibits are old so I can see demolition happening.
The Horse Boy
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I just did a Google maps satellite view of the current area. By the looks of it, there's only 2 or 3 buildings they'll need to demolish in order to modernize the area, so not much really. There's also a piece of unused parkland in the grounds between the African Veldt and the Teton Trek areas that could be usable space for expanding the habitat. They said it's a 14 acre site.
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Frankie_number_1_fan
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Has it been stated how much space will actually be dedicated to elephants? The concept art looks like they may be mixed with hoofstock.
Anything under two acres and I would dismiss any kind of long-term breeding herd plans. And if they're mixed in with other animals I doubt they'll plan to hold bachelors.
I know Dallas mixes at least a few of their elephants with hoofstock as well, but to my knowledge they don't typically keep Okubili in with them if at all. I do have to say I wonder what Memphis' long term goal is here.
Anything under two acres and I would dismiss any kind of long-term breeding herd plans. And if they're mixed in with other animals I doubt they'll plan to hold bachelors.
I know Dallas mixes at least a few of their elephants with hoofstock as well, but to my knowledge they don't typically keep Okubili in with them if at all. I do have to say I wonder what Memphis' long term goal is here.
The Horse Boy
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I have a feeling they'll prob dedicate 3 or 4 acres of elephant space. By 14 acres. I meant the entire arra included giraffes hoofstock and rhinos if they were not to be mixed with the elephants. Maybe the elephant and other plains game exhibit will be similar to Fresno Caldwell or even Dallas
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The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
If Memphis were to do breeding herds when their new habitat opens, they would have to take in a matriline from other African facilities with unrelated breeding aged cows or a single mother/dauther pair. The options would have to be:
- Umnagi and her two daughters, Swazi and her daughter Qinisa or Phakamile- her mom died years ago- at the San Deigo Safari Park
- Vasha and her daugther Kianga at Disney. They are a mother daugter pair unrelated to the rest of the herd, and they need to leave the facility ASAP.
- Mbali and her daughter Mpumi or Matjeka and her daughter Mavi at Tampa.
- Any of the 5 young Sedgwick cows and their offspring.
- Any of the 5 young Omaha girls and their calves.
- Savannah and her daughter Angelina or Mojas two daughters from Pittsburgh.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Memphis breeding would be years down the line. They've given no indication that they're sending their current cows out and, given their apparent available space, I don't think their capacity would be very high. I doubt we'll see breeding there shortly after the habitat opens.
I'd cross the safari park, pittsburgh and Tampa cows. Zero reason to send any of them out since it would leave each facility with very few reproductive individuals. Best bet is likely a few of the Sedgwick or Omaha girls if this ever comes to pass
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
I feel Memphis will start out by just housing the 5 elderly cows and perhaps a non breeding bull like msholo or ajani as a companion when the facility opens. But I'm sure the new habitat will have ample space for sizeable breeding herds. I think you're guessing too soon. So we'll have to wait till they break ground or complete the new African Veldt to know for sure.
Also I still feel sdsp would likely br ready send out one of their matrilines in the next few years or so (if they get a new breeding bull soon) given how they have about 3 or 4 each from one the cows born in 1990.
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The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
Another zoo that could ship out an African matriline or young bulls to new breeding or bachelor facilities in America could be Africam Safari down in Puebla in Southern Mexico. I'm not sure if there are any hurdles correlated with importing zoo animals from Mexico to the States, but it's certainly a possibility if any American zoos are looking for new Africans. Mexico is the country directly south of the western half of the US making it a piece of cake in a geographical context . From the looks of it, they have copious amounts of calves and breedable cows which means multiple matrilines that probably could be sent to other zoos in the future. I know very little about the place besides that.
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If Saint Louis still hold a herd, I don't see why this should be an issue - especially if you can already see them in a usual zoo setting there.
It's probably not fair to compare this situation to the Bronx, as their monorail is consistently on the move. The Wild's bus certainly stops a fair bit to view the animals.
On the freedom to view the animals, placing the Elephant Stop at the start/finish of the tour, could easily fix that problem. Or the Elephants could be utilised as the main 'halfway' point of the tour whereby visitors would be allowed to get off the bus and remain off for however long they wished; with the ability to jump back on a bus to see the rest of the zoo as they please. Just a few thoughts - there's a lot of ways that it could be worked around if the only thing stopping the elephants is the ability to view them 'properly' so to speak.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I'm sure there could be some kind of workaround to make the elephants part of the tour, but that would require a total rehaul of how they are run. The tour busses run on a fairly strict schedule with a small stop in the middle to view the carnivore complex. Adding elephants would add an additional 40+ minutes onto the tour or scrap the carnivores entirely (Which I find unlikely), and the longer the tours are the fewer busses can be running per day. It would be a pain logistics-wise and likely would cause a loss in revenue.
I think there is a place for elephants, but they wouldn't find that place at the facility until we see more walkable exhibits pop up. Most other safari park style facilities have both "safari bus rides" and at least a handful of other exhibits that can be viewed on foot. I think the best way for them to tackle this would be a seperate bus/tram system that could get visitors out to perhaps an asian-themed complex where they can traverse on foot to see the exhibits. With perhaps an extra-fee bus tour around or through the complex. I find it most likely that we'll see more indoor viewing access be built before an elephant complex would be considered though to test the waters.
As for the visior popularity, having elephants at the main zoo wouldn't erase the demand for unlimited, "proper" viewing of the elephants at the Wilds. Especially if those elephants were longtime zoo residents themselves (Rudy and Sunny being the most likely canidates to move there). And especially if this involved calves of any kind. You can't discount the popularity of baby elephants
The Horse Boy
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If Vus'Musi were to quickly regain his breeding confidence after his time with Nipho and Tsandzikle at Elephant Oddsey, then I would not be surprised if he'll get transported to breeding herds in the immediate future for his chance to finally become a dad with fresh genetics. Don't get me wrong, I'd be over the moon if he impregnated 3 of the younger SDSP cows before he left last year, but I'd much prefer it if the next facility was other than that one unlike a couple of y'all mentioned last month as his natal herd lives there and the reason he went to the other San Diego park was bc their matriarch didn't like him anymore as Frankie_number_1_fan pointed out. I could picture these places being more suitable for him when that happens:
- Atlanta
- Kansas City
- North Carolina
- Tampa
- Disney
- Dallas
- Omaha
- Sedgwick
- Indianapolis
- Jacksonville (if they do breeding groups in the future)
- Cleveland
- Pittsburgh
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There's absolutely zero sense in sending him to the majority of the facilities you just listed. The only ones that need a new bull right now are Pittsburgh, Tampa, and North Carolina, and truthfully, Musi would not be an ideal fit for any of them. All three have cows that NEED to be breed as soon as possible, if it's not too late already, and Musi has not proven himself to be a bull capable of that yet. They need studs like Callee or Mabu, or even bulls like Maclean or Tendaji who have at least proven themselves able to get the job done before wasting time with a bull of questionable breeding potential and social competency.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
He's likely not going anywhere for multiple years yet. I'd say he's likely to end up at Omaha if he was successful breeding the SDZP girls, but that won't be happening for probably 4-5 years.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
I just don't want to discount him from breeding yet. You never know if he actually will become a successful dad when they move him to breeding facilities. His upbringing at SDSP was idyllic and he has sure a lot of genetic value with wild sire as rehashed here.
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Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
No one is discounting his potential, but the fact remains that he isn't proven (or at least isn't publicly confirmed) and it is a rather large risk to bring in an unproven, potentially socially incompatible bull to breed females that need to get pregnant asap. If he for some reason didn't get the safari park girls pregnant, then other facilities may be reluctant to take him on.
Even if he is proven, it still will likely be a few years before he's moved. The facilities you listed just aren't realistic options at the moment. There aren't really any facilities with the room or need to bring in a new bull minus Pittsburgh, which I agree needs an experienced, proven bull to get the job done. Plus the factor of Pittsburgh being nearly across the country from San Diego, which is definitely a factor against him going there.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
The problem with Pittsburgh is their outdoor enclosure is quite small and their barn needs a serious face-lift now they're AZA affiliated again and would've switched to protected contact. So I anticipate they'd have to greatly expand outdoor space and renovate the barn before bringing in a new bull, esp by adding a secondary outer pen to give the male space to hang out solo as what happens with all the newer breeding facilities. I'm immensely surprised they haven't talked about that in their new master plan.
Frankie_number_1_fan
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If they wait to expand then they won't have cows to breed. Their youngest girls are going on 17 now, they don't have that kind of time.
A bull transferring in temporarily to impregnate the girls and then leaving in relatively short order should solve the issue, but I can't say I'm confident we'll see that happen.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
Maybe they can do that by bringing in mabu or tendaji. I know they have housed a mature bull before, so it shouldn't be a big hassle.