Australian Asian Elephant Population 2025
- Thread starter Zoofan15
- Start date
That’s very kind of you, though I’m certain nothing proposed here hasn’t already been discussed by those working in the field. As a visitor, I had the privilege of having conversations with both Andrew and Odin while they were working at Auckland; and also Zoos Victoria’s elephant team (while based at Melbourne Zoo) and their knowledge and expertise is second to none.
However, if there was one change I (and many others) on here would like to effect, it’s more regular breeding - especially at Dubbo. Viable cows going to waste has been a great source of frustration, so management taking action to expand their barn facilities and enable this change would be appreciated. In saying that, I acknowledge it’s not as simple as that and these projects are subject to funding. That in turn is determined by the NSW government (in Dubbo’s case) and is influenced by a range of factors. I’m sure the zoo would very much welcome an expanded barn as much as we would; but conservation of native species etc. will inevitably take priority.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I think it's also fairly reasonable to say that these animals' keepers likely share similar concerns. I'm sure that it's far from a secret that care staff and higherups tend to disagree when it comes to many questionable management decisions.
Certainly agree. Not with elephants specifically, but I've had many personal conversations with keepers who do care as much about the animals as we do, and have pushed for change with very little results.
Unfortunately at the end of the day, management is the ones who have the say in big things like developments. And in the case of Dubbo - the keepers (and the coordinator) would likely want to breed from the cows, but it's unfortunately not something they can do until the government and higher up management gives the green light for a new barn.
You are quite correct the keepers know the animals far better than many of the management would know in most cases, we have seen the many mistakes made over the years because of out of touch and arrogant managers believe they know it all, the elephant team should have a bigger say in management matters as elephants are a special case not only because they are properly the zoos biggest draw card but because of their special needs being so large and intelligent not to mention dangerous to handle, also not a common animal within our zoos here and very difficult to acquire!
For the record I believe as stated before that the management at Werribee have done an outstanding job they appear to have done everything right I have much respect for them!
Zoos Victoria have set a bench mark for elephant husbandry every zoo in the region (as well as internationally) should aspire to. Close to a decade of planning went into the design of their complex and I struggle to think of a single exhibit that opened within the expectation of it remaining operational for the next 100 years (as is the plan for Werribee’s complex).
It’ll be interesting to see whether Dubbo’s succession planning changes in response to Monarto’s breeding plans. Within the next 12-24 months, we’ll have a clear picture of whether Pak Boon remains viable as a breeding cow - with the conception of a calf giving confidence she could breed several times over the next decade. Conversely, her failure to conceive could set in motion plans for Monarto to hold bachelor bulls long term - perhaps enabling Dubbo to increase breeding. Their options to do so are of course dwindling with Thong Dee and Porntip now at nine and seven years respectively since their last calves. It appears the future is Anjalee and Kanlaya.
Monarto Safari Park update:
Putra Mas is still scheduled to arrive late spring:
From Zoos SA’s socials:
A fresh sand delivery was just one of many developments at the Asian Elephant habitat this week, with construction on track for Putra Mas’s arrival in late spring and the herd continuing to explore new connections.
With an additional habitat space now open, keepers are closely monitoring behaviour and offering regular opportunities for all four cows to interact. These managed introductions give the elephants time and choice to safely communicate and build familiarity, whether that’s side by side, between bollard barriers, or through sound, scent, and sight.
Burma remains a calm and steady presence, often pausing to observe her companions or enjoy a dust bath, while Permai and Tang Mo are showing encouraging signs of communication. This is giving Tang Mo new confidence, reshaping her interactions with Pak Boon – all part of the natural, dynamic way mature elephants work out their place in the herd.
Keepers are working to foster a cohesive herd, providing the elephants the time and opportunity to build confidence, explore connections, and discover what works best for them. Social dynamics between mature elephants are inherently complex and fluid, with no set timeline or single guaranteed outcome. That’s why we’re moving on elephant time – following their lead and keeping their welfare at the heart of every decision.
Putra Mas is still scheduled to arrive late spring:
From Zoos SA’s socials:
A fresh sand delivery was just one of many developments at the Asian Elephant habitat this week, with construction on track for Putra Mas’s arrival in late spring and the herd continuing to explore new connections.
With an additional habitat space now open, keepers are closely monitoring behaviour and offering regular opportunities for all four cows to interact. These managed introductions give the elephants time and choice to safely communicate and build familiarity, whether that’s side by side, between bollard barriers, or through sound, scent, and sight.
Burma remains a calm and steady presence, often pausing to observe her companions or enjoy a dust bath, while Permai and Tang Mo are showing encouraging signs of communication. This is giving Tang Mo new confidence, reshaping her interactions with Pak Boon – all part of the natural, dynamic way mature elephants work out their place in the herd.
Keepers are working to foster a cohesive herd, providing the elephants the time and opportunity to build confidence, explore connections, and discover what works best for them. Social dynamics between mature elephants are inherently complex and fluid, with no set timeline or single guaranteed outcome. That’s why we’re moving on elephant time – following their lead and keeping their welfare at the heart of every decision.
I would like to know how far along the building currently is out there, I really hope the Putra Mas transfer is done before it gets into the summer months!
Perhasp @Luke899 or @marmolady could update us on their next visit as to how the construction is progressing.
Late spring implies November, so hopefully that’s the plan before both the height of summer and Putra Mas’ 2026 musth cycle kicks in. If they don’t transfer him before then, that will lock him out until April/May 2026, which I fear would have implications for Pak Boon conceiving.
I see a cow at Blackpool has just delivered a live calf 13 years after her last birth. That’s not a birth interval we want to aspire to. It’s been eight years since Pak Boon’s last calf, which is plenty long enough with regards to getting her pregnant again. The regional record otherwise stands at 8 years, 11 months between Dokkoon’s second and third calf.
I hope it works out the number of factors concerning the move is concerning!
Tara at Blackpool is (I believe) now the cow with the captive record for the largest interval between calves, which is 13 years and 6 months. What's even more impressive, is her previous calf was a stillborn!
At least now there's still hope for Dubbo's cows (Porntip and Thong Dee) if Dubbo has to wait another few years until they receive the go ahead for a new barn.
Yes, if a calf is stillborn, the cow would resume cycling sooner than a cow that lactated following a live birth and didn’t resume cycling until the calf was approaching 12 months of age. Ovulation cycles obviously adding to the scarring of the reproductive tract.
I always thought it would have been phenomenal if Dubbo could have replicated Melbourne’s cohort of calves and had Porntip, Thong Dee and Anjalee all conceive around the same time. It was never going to happen with the lack of barn space, but the benefits of Melbourne/Werribee’s cohort are clear and even Taronga’s first trio of calves (all born eight months apart) benefited immensely from each other’s company.
Unless Porntip and Thong Dee breed, I anticipate Dubbo will aim to coincide Anjalee’s second calf with Kanalaya’s first (circa 2032).
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Is there any timeline for when Dubbo will build a new barn? Feels like they're going to run themselves into the ground with one currently viable cow and then relying on a vulnerable young animal to survive until ~2030.
Can someone refresh me on why they have such strict space constraints? Iirc the barn still has a "stall" set up, but assuming Thong Dee (+ calf), Porntip (+ calf) + Kanlaya, and Anjalee (+calf) can share a stall each then the setup should work okay.
If a bull is taking up a stall then they need to send one of them out. I'm not too keen on Sydney's available space but if needed they potentially could accomodate one?
Do note that, as someone from the states, I haven't seen nor know much about these facilities' layouts so I could be talking nonsense here
Can someone refresh me on why they have such strict space constraints? Iirc the barn still has a "stall" set up, but assuming Thong Dee (+ calf), Porntip (+ calf) + Kanlaya, and Anjalee (+calf) can share a stall each then the setup should work okay.
If a bull is taking up a stall then they need to send one of them out. I'm not too keen on Sydney's available space but if needed they potentially could accomodate one?
Do note that, as someone from the states, I haven't seen nor know much about these facilities' layouts so I could be talking nonsense here
Is there any timeline for when Dubbo will build a new barn? Feels like they're going to run themselves into the ground with one currently viable cow and then relying on a vulnerable young animal to survive until ~2030.
Can someone refresh me on why they have such strict space constraints? Iirc the barn still has a "stall" set up, but assuming Thong Dee (+ calf), Porntip (+ calf) + Kanlaya, and Anjalee (+calf) can share a stall each then the setup should work okay.
If a bull is taking up a stall then they need to send one of them out. I'm not too keen on Sydney's available space but if needed they potentially could accomodate one?
Do note that, as someone from the states, I haven't seen nor know much about these facilities so I could be talking nonsense here
I was told the new barn was 3-5 years away in 2022, but it’s nowhere near close to being built, so I’d say minimum of three years away at this point. It’s reliant on funding, which has yet to be confirmed for this project.
Barn 1 (three stalls) was built in 1977 for the 1.4 young African elephants. It holds the matriarchal herd. Porntip and Kanlaya in one stall; Thong Dee in the second; and Anjalee in the third.
Barn 2 (two stalls) was built ahead of the arrival of the 1.1 African elephants in 1983 and is currently empty.
Barn 3 (three stalls) was built in 2014. It currently holds Gung, Pathi Harn and Sabai.
The issue is like you say, with the stalls. If Porntip and Thong Dee produced bull calves, these would need to transfer across to the bull facility and there’s no additional room there. It would however help if they could bring the second barn into use. Obviously it wouldn’t be desirable to split the matriarchal herd; but it could at least be useful for managing the transition of bull calves out the matriarchal herd.
Syndey Zoo have two paddocks, so wouldn’t be interested in taking on an additional bull. Their pair get on well for the time being, but they’re adolescents and there’s no way of knowing how their relationship will progress. They’ll also need to be kept separate during musth.
There are currently three barns. The problem is really that the zoo doesn't really want to split the matriarchal herd overnight. The stalls are not really adequate for more than two mature elephants in one stall - so therefore a new barn is required asap.Is there any timeline for when Dubbo will build a new barn? Feels like they're going to run themselves into the ground with one currently viable cow and then relying on a vulnerable young animal to survive until ~2030.
Can someone refresh me on why they have such strict space constraints? Iirc the barn still has a "stall" set up, but assuming Thong Dee (+ calf), Porntip (+ calf) + Kanlaya, and Anjalee (+calf) can share a stall each then the setup should work okay.
If a bull is taking up a stall then they need to send one of them out. I'm not too keen on Sydney's available space but if needed they potentially could accomodate one?
Do note that, as someone from the states, I haven't seen nor know much about these facilities' layouts so I could be talking nonsense here
There is one barn that seems to be unoccupied at the moment, but I think at one point Gung was in there by himself (he could still be), meaning there is space for more bull calves there. However the problem with more bull calves is the groupings.
Dubbo only has four paddocks, and at the moment with their three bulls living separately more often than not, that takes up three of the four paddocks already. Dubbo has two bulls (Gung and Pathi) who are more independent than sociable, so they're on the ropes with having to accommodate them too.
I think they could, they have at least three stalls - but they would be tight on space and heavily reliant on two of the animals coexisting full time.
It’s an unfortunate situation as Sabai is their least genetically valuable bull, but the best prospect as a mentor for future based on his temperament (and the unsuitability of the other two bulls). Gung is a founder and unrelated to all three cows (also founders); and Pathi Harn will presumably be bred with Anjalee next time (now they have time on their side).
Whether they’d want to retain Sabai as a mentor and to breed with Kanlaya I don’t know (she could also breed with Gung); but should there be an opportunity to export Sabai to the US, they should jump at the chance in the interests of freeing up space.
It’ll be interesting to see if Putra Mas breeds with Pak Boon; but if he fails to do so, I don’t foresee a replacement bull being trucked to Monarto. At best they may resort to AI, but it’d be a huge undertaking to bring in another bull and all on the hope Pak Boon can still conceive. It’s a shame as that could otherwise have been an ideal opportunity for Pathi Harn to have entered the breeding programme.
Taronga are going to spend $105 million on a cable car for the zoo I guess that's more important than a barn for adult cows elephants that have and can breed which are in short supply in this country so now they properly with never be bred from againIs there any timeline for when Dubbo will build a new barn? Feels like they're going to run themselves into the ground with one currently viable cow and then relying on a vulnerable young animal to survive until ~2030.
Can someone refresh me on why they have such strict space constraints? Iirc the barn still has a "stall" set up, but assuming Thong Dee (+ calf), Porntip (+ calf) + Kanlaya, and Anjalee (+calf) can share a stall each then the setup should work okay.
If a bull is taking up a stall then they need to send one of them out. I'm not too keen on Sydney's available space but if needed they potentially could accomodate one?
Do note that, as someone from the states, I haven't seen nor know much about these facilities' layouts so I could be talking nonsense here
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
If the cows are tolerant of seperation (which, to be fair, they could not be) then I see little reason not to breed Porntip and Thong Dee once more and then utilize the empty barn to divide matrilines and then potentially excess bulls later on. They could even theoretically alternate the cow groupings per barn depending on the day.
Porntip, Kanlaya and a hypothetical calf could spend time in one barn with Thongdee + a hypothetical calf in one stall and Anjalee + a hypothetical calf in another stall in the other barn. Then of course they'd be on exhibit together during the day. It wouldn't be ideal but it would be a fine set-up until a new barn could be built and would, at least, buy Thong Dee and Porntip time.
Even if they delay the barn for another ~5-6 years, any bull calves should continue to be housed with their mothers. Bull calves, especially those raised in herd settings tend to be able to stay with the group longer.
Of course, none of this is ideal, but imo it should be a priority to keep Thong Dee and Porntip viable.
Another priority should be transferring one of the bulls out. I know the costs to export are far from normal in the current US political climate, but getting Sabai out of Dubbo would be an immense weight off of Dubbo's shoulders. It would free up a paddock and a stall which means they could accomodate up to three male calves.
I think the issue is the zoo wouldn't really want to seperate the herd overnight. Sleeping and being together overnight is a huge part of forming bonds, and keeping the elephants apart overnight would likely weaken the bonds. Especially with the herd consisting of different matrilines, that wouldn't be preferable. Furthermore, the herd probably wouldn't react well having to sleep separate (especially with them not being used to it).
I don't think there's issue with the zoo having future bull calves, more so female calves which will need space within the cow barn in the long term. If Anjalee welcomes a bull calf in the coming months, there would be space for it in one of the other two barns eventually, and it would likely be able to co-exist with Sabai long term.
Still, it would be good for Dubbo to get rid of one of the three bulls. Sabai makes the most sense - and the only likely way I can see him departing is via export. But at the same time retaining two rather 'unsociable' bulls (for lack of a better word), would also be difficult for Dubbo in the long term, so it would make sense for them to send one of Gung or Pathi elsewhere. If Putra Mas doesn't breed Pak Boon, there could be an opportunity for Pathi Harn being sent down to Monarto.