Iguana_Cabana
Well-Known Member
Whoops forgot to mention earlier: the guy who is the current CEO of the AZA, Dan Ashe, used to work for the Obama FWS. Is it not any more crystal clear that the current AZA loathes the private trade?
I can't tell how Zoochat feels about the AZA.
- Thread starter La Cucaracha
- Start date
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
Her name is Qannik and she entered the captive population in 2011. She's not even the youngest rescue bear within the population, both Kali (2013) and Kova (2021) were rescued after she was.
Did you... even read my previous reply to you? I specifically pointed out that while that was once the case, it no longer is. Breeding was never even outright forbidden, there was just a permitting process that zoos had to go through first.
La Cucaracha
Well-Known Member
What administration cares about us, to be honest?
I don't think there's been a herp keeping president since Theodore Roosevelt.
La Cucaracha
Well-Known Member
That doesn't make ex situ breeding easier for anybody.
Many zoos will choose to avoid certain permitting processes altogether because it's too difficult or too expensive.
It looks like you didn't read my reply yourself, either. I said limitations, not bans.
La Cucaracha
Well-Known Member
So what you're saying is the MMPA used to have massive hurdles for zoos acquisitioning polar bears, and now zoos are playing catch up?
When exactly were these exemptions made, anyway?
Doves are game species and thus are excluded from MBTA. They are hunted in both the US and Mexico.
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
I don't disagree, which is why it's a good thing that permits are no longer required.
The AZA realized that there was an issue with the MMPA with regards to their rescued polar bears, but instead of whining about it and saying that the entire law should be chucked out, they made an active effort to change the one specific part of the law that was negatively affecting the captive American polar bear population.
You literally said this first, my dude.
La Cucaracha
Well-Known Member
They're not hunted in the US at the same capacity as Mexico.
Game birds are actually not excluded from the MBTA. You need a federal stamp to hunt geese, ducks, and mergansers. Doves are exempt from the stamp, not MBTA status.
La Cucaracha
Well-Known Member
Laws change, "dude". I still want to know when this came to effect. Yes, laws change.
But the ESA is not a reflection of the current needs of wildlife conservation. It is a reflection of the 1970s environmental movement.
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
Uh, no? I never said that? We've been discussing previous issues with breeding rescued polar bears, not acquiring them in the first place. The Alaska Zoo isn't even accredited and houses polar bears, including any and all orphaned cubs prior to placement in the lower 47.
At least two years ago. Prior to Payton's ill-fated move to Louisville Zoo. You might've been aware of that had you done more research on the topic. It's been talked about quite a bit on ZooChat.
La Cucaracha
Well-Known Member
This sort of attitude is why I don't engage with ZooChat anymore.
I don't have a problem with being wrong. It opens up possibilities. Some sources would be nice.
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
And in my personal opinion, the MMPA isn't one that needs to be gutted.
I mean, if you could actually wait for me to reply to your initial comments instead of getting impatient and making new ones, that would be nice.
I disagree, vehemently. Given whose running the show right now, we need the ESA now more than ever before.
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
I'm not going to hold your hand and spoon feed you, I've told you where the information can be found. Now go and find it yourself, surely you were taught in school how to use a search engine? One that's built into the website itself, no less.
Just because a law has a few issues doesn't mean these issues cause the law to have more harm than good.
Does MBTA fail to protect many bird species? Yes. Many bird species spend much of their seasonal cycle outside the US, Canada and Mexico, far away from MBTA protections. MBTA also does little to protect birds from habitat loss, which is the largest threat to most species.
Does this mean MBTA is a useless piece of legislation? Of course not. MBTA regulates the hunting of birds over several countries, and totally protects many more species, both from hunting and nest disturbance. It doesn't totally fix every issue it was intended to fix. No piece of legislation ever has. But it helps a lot. The solution isn't to repeal the act because it did not totally achieve its intended effect. That would be ridiculous, and would undermine so much progress. The solution is to amend the act, and to enact other legislation, that help to further solve the issues not solved by MBTA.
The exact same sentiment goes to the ESA and to the MMPA, and frankly just about every other law ever passed.
La Cucaracha
Well-Known Member
If indigenous people can harvest wildlife and zoos can breed and acquisition animals they have breeding programs for, then I would agree.
We need new laws that reflect the current environment of conservation. Maybe even ones that actually protect critical habitat for endangered species from people like the current administration.
If only I could have this nasty attitude with the same users that have belittled me in the past when they ask me to quote them on it.
La Cucaracha
Well-Known Member
Again, the MBTA isn't really a reflection of the need to regulate modern wind mills. It was originally to punish people that collect even shed feathers, and it's still used that way.
There was a time when that legislation was necessary to protect birds from the fashion industry.
Protection of birds from the fashion industry probably isn't something that's needed today, you are correct (although would it be in an alternate history where MBTA wasn't passed? I do not know). But, given the far-reaching wording of the MBTA, I think it is almost certain that any industry which takes or disturbs birds - not only fashion - was what the MBTA was intended to regulate, including windmills. In that, it continues to do its job excellently.
Lafone
Well-Known Member
I said I thought you wanted to be in that sort of book. Not that you were a book in real life. It wasn't remotely in relation to a comment you made on the AZA it was in a thread where you wanted to sell animals from the wild for profit. So, a little rich as you say to quote that. Is it name calling to suggest you wanted to catch wild animals and sell them for profit as in the Willard Price (fiction) books? I thought it rather apt.
And, for your information, because there are people in the world who are not you know, I am not a 'guy' either.
Anyway, back on topic, waiting for the quotes where people called you 'names' for expressing your opinions on the AZA.
Or it's because people dare to disagree with you in the same way as you seem content to disagree with them. Why doesn't it cut both ways?
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
Yes and yes? From my understanding, it's typically animal rights activists that raise a fuss about both activities, rather than the MMPA disallowing them.
And that's something that we agree on, I just don't think that we need to get rid of landmark laws in order to make that happen.
Good luck with making any headway on that for the next three years.
Loling at you saying that I have a "nasty attitude" when I've expressed nothing more than expressed some exasperation to you. And if other users are bullying you, why are you complaining about it on the forum itself instead of dealing with it with the Mods in private?
Lafone
Well-Known Member
And just for information this thread
How to make a career (ethically) capturing and dealing wildlife in 2023?
was why I thought this was apt for anyone seeking context. Is it name calling I wonder, I thought the notion was fantastical and little more than bait however, which the books are not in fairness.
Adventure series (Willard Price) - Wikipedia
How to make a career (ethically) capturing and dealing wildlife in 2023?
was why I thought this was apt for anyone seeking context. Is it name calling I wonder, I thought the notion was fantastical and little more than bait however, which the books are not in fairness.
Adventure series (Willard Price) - Wikipedia