Bear Situation In The UK

That all sounds crazy to me....where did you hear about them moving to whipsnade? It would be a ridiculous wallaby exhibit, and of no conservation value whatsoever.

The enrichment programme for the sloth bears is phenomenal, the enclosure is also of a very high standard and cost £160,000 so I can't imagine they would be in a hurry to rebuild it. And if I remember right there was a really big deal made about the symbolic nature of bears returning to london.

All the suggestions made here about wolves and big cats, I don't think it is suitable for wolves, plus one of the best enclosures in 1980s London zoo was the old 'wolf wood' (now 'meet the monkeys' & anteater enclosures).

I doubt there will ever be public access to the upper levels again, having more to do with disabled access than the cost of rennovation. The adult female sloth bear does show stereotyped behaviour but it was almost constant when she arrived and is indicative of her background rather than the enclosure at London. I do agree that the exhibit has lost its life in some ways; the langurs' numbers have dwindled and no longer represent a family group, the muntjac, peafowl and most of the wildfowl have gone, but the planting has matured and it would be a shame to see the bears go.
 
I remember all the fuss about the bears returning to London, and i do believe they were a symbol of the resurrection of London zoo after the terrible times of the near closure of the regents park site. So maybe with sloth bears possibly going, maybe they could bring in spectacled or sun bears which could maybe make a better exhibit and the basis of some innovative theming.
 
Maybe the brown bears are to leave whipsnade to make room? Alladale wilderness reserve in Scotland plans to mix brown bears with wolves, elk, boar and red deer.
 
It came from a ZSL council member.

I agree with everything you say Hadley. The Bear Mountain exhibit was constructed on a tight budget and I think it was money well spent - certainly in terms of the publicity it drew and the ensuing rise in visitor figures. And it all seems so recent too to be doing away with them already.

From what I understand, although the Sri Lankan subspecies of the Sloth Bear is in need of conservation measures, there are so few in captivity (ISIS lists: LONDON RP 1.2, MOSCOW 1.1, CLEVELAND 0.2, LOWRY 1.0, NZP-WASH 0.1, PHILADELP 0.1, ROLLING H 0.1, TOLEDO 1.1) that ZSL is at a bit of a dead end with them. I can't imagine that the bears will be replaced with more bears. But the zoo does need something charismatic for sure.
 
CZJimmy said:
That is a good point. On my visit there in April, only one bear was on show and it was just pacing the perimeter fence. The langurs were also nowhere to be seen.
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On almost every visit I've made to ZSL in recent years, the bears have been inactive- the last time they were curled up asleep right by the den door at the back of the exhibit- as if wanting to escape into the darkened area... The Langur group has dwindled too- I saw just one Langur last time.
 
Hadley said:
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The enrichment programme for the sloth bears is phenomenal, the enclosure is also of a very high standard and cost £160,000 so I can't imagine they would be in a hurry to rebuild it. And if I remember right there was a really big deal made about the symbolic nature of bears returning to london.

I do agree that the exhibit has lost its life in some ways; the langurs' numbers have dwindled and no longer represent a family group, but the planting has matured and it would be a shame to see the bears go.
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The enrichment programme and expense of the enclosure clearly isn't helping to maintain activity levels for the bears though.... They are just not a very suitable species for a major exhibit.

There's nothing wrong with maintaining bears in the enclosure but I think Sloth bears were possibly the worst choice of species as they are essentially nocturnal (in the wild) as are sun bears. Also, the symbolic issue I think has long been forgotten now- eclipsed by newer exhibits such as Gorilla Kingdom, Clore revamp, Hunting dogs etc and I doubt many people would notice if the Sloth bears quietly disappeared.

Any number of species,either another, more visible bear species, or something different altogether, could be brought in to replace them, as suggestions here show...... But pleeeeease- not wallabies!!
 
As Pertinax said the sloth bear is essentially a nocturnal species so doesn't really make for a great exhibit despite being high-profile. Also the Hanuman langur is a relatively shy woodland or forest species and it's therefore no surprise that the group has struggled on the terraces.

I think a large group of geladas would show really well in the exhibit. Please tell me the wallaby idea is only a short-term solution.
 
Chris79 said:
Also the Hanuman langur is a relatively shy woodland or forest species and it's therefore no surprise that the group has struggled on the terraces.
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I thought Grey Langur was the Monkey of many and varied habitats in India(and Sri Lanka)- Forest, Rocky outcrops and around Human habitation/temples too? I think they are pretty bold and can be quite aggressive too. I am surprised the ZSL group has dwindled- they are an easy Langur to maintain in captivity without the specialised dietary needs of other Langur species. I thought they were originally a valuable addition to the exhibit and the most interesting part as they used to look good leaping around. I don't understand why they have been allowed to fade to almost nothing and think it is a pity. Unfortunately there isn't much that can be done with them now..

A number of continental zoos exhibit Gelada baboons and Barbary sheep together. They don't ocurr together in the wild so its an artificial mixing but seems to work well as both use rocky terrain in zoo exhibits.. Unfortunately Barbary sheep are not 'endangered' so not reallty suitable for London's conservation brief nowadays.
 
Bears-Kent

Hadley said:
I keep mentioning this, but does anybody know why the following image is on the site of the zoo in Sandwich? Do they have Sun bears, or is this just a random photo?

RSCC - Animals
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In answer to Hadleys enqury some time ago... the Rare Species Conservation Centre in Sandwich, Kent does indeed have young sun bear/s. They have been added to the Centres Website species list recently. I dont know where they have come from as yet?
 
jack, i believe the web site actually says the bears will be arriving in 2008, have you seen them at rssc?. The possibility of showing gelada at london, they could be in a mixed exhibit with Nubian ibex as they come from the same sort of area in the horn of Africa and it would highlight an area in which the zsl is working hard i.e the conservation of the ethiopian wolf which lives in the same area as gelada and ibex.
 
Yes, that's more like it...:) Something like Ibex would utilise the higher parts of the terraces too, while Geladas are a very good show and quite rare/unusual in Zoos- only Colchester and Edinburgh have them in UK.
 
I think we are going off the topic here. Saw Nubian Ibex with Hamadryas Baboons at Munich so no reason why they wouldn't mix with Geladas.
 
Paradoxurus said:
I think we are going off the topic here. Saw Nubian Ibex with Hamadryas Baboons at Munich so no reason why they wouldn't mix with Geladas.
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Yes, maybe we should wait and see if the Sloth Bears are moved before hazarding any more guesses...:)
 
Paradoxurus said:
I think we are going off the topic here. Saw Nubian Ibex with Hamadryas Baboons at Munich so no reason why they wouldn't mix with Geladas.
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Bronx have a good gelada reserve mixed with Nubian Ibex. I don't speak first hand, but I've heard about it.

How does the terrace work these days? There are two levels, and one defunct third level? Are the two levels mixed? I've never quite been able to work it out, but I came to the assumption the langurs could enter the bears enclosure, but not the other way round. It could make a good Asiatic lion exhibit, I mean a fantastic enclosure if they were given access to all but the top level with a little family group enclosed in it. That'd allow the cat terrace to be expanded into a tiger territory, giving them access to both big cat enclosures. Perhaps keeping the tigers separate most of the time could stimulate breeding when they are mixed? Plenty of spare Asian primates kicking about that area too I notice.

The only thing with all this is it takes a big name from the ZSL London Zoo list. I know the sloth bears aren't as high profile as Tigers, Lions and Gorillas, but just being able to say there are bears sounds good. Especially now there's no rhinos and elephants. It seems it always comes back to this with London. Its all about the 'star species' with London and public expectation. How about a bear swap? Like if Sloth bears went, and brown bears came in an attempt to get something more active on show? I don't think that's likely, it's just speculation. I think that area does have a sort of Indian feel about it, and the Sloth Bears just seem right, but that does bring me back to Asiatic Lions. Would they struggle to secure it for them?
 
^Chris^ said:
How does the terrace work these days? There are two levels, and one defunct third level? Are the two levels mixed? I've never quite been able to work it out, but I came to the assumption the langurs could enter the bears enclosure, but not the other way round. It could make a good Asiatic lion exhibit, I mean a fantastic enclosure if they were given access to all but the top level with a little family group enclosed in it..... I think that area does have a sort of Indian feel about it, and the Sloth Bears just seem right, but that does bring me back to Asiatic Lions.
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I think the bears can access the lower two levels i.e. the flat planted area plus the old bear enclosures, which they can access via ramps I think(but I wonder if they ever do?) The Langurs originally had the end terraced enclosure + a little den underneath- presumably both inaccessible to the bears- but the monkeys could use the rest of the enclosure too. I think the highest 'mountains' section is out of bounds to all and is still defunct..

As you said, the lowest area has now successfully acquired an 'Indian' feel, through the planting and landscaping they've done. If the Asian lions weren't to be moved, I'd like to see this type of planting in their own enclosure. If the bears went, the Lions could fit the bill as far as the size and suitability of the (Mappin) enclosure goes.

It remains to be seen if, what and when anything is going to happen though.
 
I think the enclosure is pretty good for bears and sloth bears are the right species, they just have the wrong individuals. The sloth bears in Leipzig Zoo and in Berlin are not nocturnal but usually active during the day and make an attractive exhibit, so moving the current, inactive bears to Whipsnade and bring in young animals from leipzig and Berlin could be a good idea. The enclosure would also be good for a group of sun bears, those in Berlin and Cologne are usually active during the day too... it seems sun bears can easily be kept in groups of 4 or even more (Berlin and Cologne), so why not trying that?
 
I think if we were talking about Port Lypmne or a similar collection there would maybe be more expectation for animals to be shy/ inactive/ not visible, but as it is London zoo, it seems to make a bigger difference in terms of an active exhibit. They seem to be fairly content, I've seen them using all parts of the exhibit on various visits, and they get bursts of activity depending on what enrichment is going on that day. It just seems strange to give up on this species; its not like there's anywhere captive-breeding large carnivores for release, I don't get why the fact there isn't a viable population of the Sri Lankan species would cause such a move. Again, bears in general have important conservation stories to tell alongside their exhibits. It will be tricky to house anything else as large as a bear species up on the mappins....certainly big cats would be a great risk to contain, but if they end up with some kind of walk-in wallaby enclosure it will truly suck! The new york ibex/gelada exhibit i think is on zoolex, it looks really amazing, but with the mappins they will just look horrible if what little vegetation has been established is removed by grazing ibex or destructive baboons. Howletts, colchester and edinburgh don't really make enough of their geladas though, they would look impressive on the mappin terraces.

On the flipside, maybe the three sloth bears will get a bigger and more secluded enclousure at whipsnade, I'm sure the clean air and relative quiet will be good for them.
 
It was only about 10-15 years ago that the (then empty) mappin terraces were proposed as some kind of 'gorilla mountain' which, if the drawings were anything to go by, would have made the gorillas appear as if in a remake of Planet of the Apes , looking at the space now its hard to imagine the idea was really on the cards for a while.
 
Hadley said:
It was only about 10-15 years ago that the (then empty) mappin terraces were proposed as some kind of 'gorilla mountain' which, if the drawings were anything to go by, would have made the gorillas appear as if in a remake of Planet of the Apes , looking at the space now its hard to imagine the idea was really on the cards for a while.
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When that was suggested, the plan was described as 'Europe's leading Gorilla Centre'. How wrong can they be? They actually have about the worst record for Gorilla breeding of any major zoo in Europe and it ain't improved recently..:

It was also suggested prior to that, that the Mappins would be turned into a 'Spirit of China' exhibit with Giant Panda and other Chinese fauna, but that didn't happen either....

Its another example of a dated zoo design which doesn't lend itself easily to modern exhibits.
 
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