Australian Elephants and the Program.

One thing which stands out to me with the breeding program is why this was not started 20 or 30 years ago we have lagged far behind Europe and the US for years. Why were our major zoos keeping "a couple" here are there in small exhibits, I agree with Phoenix that elephants are better suited to open range zoos than city zoos and now our zoos have started breeding them it's all the more reason to have them in a large setting so the herd can expand into a real family as they would in the wild with the young females staying in the herd they were born in with the young males leaving the herd at the right age.It is just a matter of time before Melbourne's elephants end up at the Werribee zoo where they should have gone in the first place.
 
phoenix said:
i get that Steve. but for an animal that tours constantly in a truck - taking a holiday up the coast is hardly "uprooting".

my point is - it wouldn't hurt..
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Pheonix - a few points

Burma staying at Taronga and being integrated with the herd . . I seriously doubt this would have been possible. For starters there is the matter of free contact. Not possible with Burma.

You assume that a meeting with other elephants would go well. If you go out to Dubbo you might notice Burma is in an enclosure on her own. Despite the elephant keepers best efforts. On introduction Burma instantly tried to establish her dominance over Arna and Gigi. Arna is very protective of Gigi and although Burma is larger she can't dominate the two others. They still have fence contact but at present it isn't possible to house the elephants together.

Can you imagine what would have happened if they tried to introduce Burma to young elephants. At the time they believed Burma would have the company of Heman through the fence. his death was not expected and yes they were left with a solitary elephant.

With regards to Saigon, very sad. I once had a long phone conversation with Lorraine Maynard and her love of not only hers but all elephants was very clear, from what she told me the property in victoria gave the elephants more freedom than any of our zoos. The only way a transition from a circus elephant to zoo elephant could be successful would be if her trainer was to go with her. Arna and Gigi made the transition fairly well (although i believe they miss the hands on intereaction with handlers) because they had eachother. But to take an elephant from a family she has been with for 50 years would be devastating to the elephant.

I have worked with elephants at a sanctuary overseas - In my time there we took in an elephant and we took over the care. My employers were forced to hire the elephants mahout as the cow would not calm down without him. There were 12 other elephants at the property. Elephants like company - it doesn't necessarily need to be other elephants.
 
Hix said:
You're forgetting the fact that the protected contact facility was built on the the site of Heman and Burma's enclosure. In order to build it the elephants had to be moved - Dubbo was the logical choice.
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i haven't forgotten anything hix. first of all - that fact makes no difference to the point im trying to make - that from the outset elephant welfare has come second to the commercial gains. and its illustrated time and time and again with the choices that were made.

taronga's new exhibit or timeline and logistics couldn't accommodate the two protective contact elephants it already had? well why not? they designed teh exhibits, initiated the timeline and made all the decisions. you are arguing that i don't understand that these elephants didn't fit tarongas plans - i am arguing that their plans were wrong.

secondly, jarkari - i don't actually care if burma didn't get along with the elephants or not - not you, me hix, tarongas elephant keepers or anyone can say with certainty if that would or would not have worked out.

and if you agree with that statement - that none of us actually know what would happen. then how is my argument wrong and yours right?

because under the hix-robinson-jarkari-taronga policy - the zoo could have got it wrong. burma might have been happier.

under my policy - all avenues are explored. she might have ended up at dubbo after all. but there can be no doubt whatever happened, that the elephant ended up in the best situation possible.

and lastly - arna and gigi were hardly long-lost soul mates. they had only been living together a short time. yet we accept that those animals are happy at dubbo without their old handlers because they have eachother. yet you argue that a solitary elephant is best off staying with her handlers because her bond is closer to them than it could be with any other elephant.
 
The fact that Perry Brother's circus still have two elephants in this country makes me sick and the people who pay to go and see them make me sick
 
ZYBen said:
...or be the only Circus in the Country with an elephant :)

Gotta look at this commercially as well as ethically.
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You see, most people look at animals commercially and here lies the problem with people and animal cruelty all over the world
 
Isn't it illegal to have a single elephant at one facility in australia? If that is the case Saigon could be moved to australia zoo or dubbo which in my opinion much better. Hopefully Saigon could get along well with Burma as I've read Arna and Gigi often pick on her.

If the bullying is really bad they could move her to australia zoo. Elephants never forget and Burma was with Bullens 28 years ago and probably ( not sure) spent a good amount of time with Siam, Sabu and Bimbo.

Just saying..... could possibly happen.
 
normaeinstein said:
The fact that Perry Brother's circus still have two elephants in this country makes me sick and the people who pay to go and see them make me sick
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Given the number of people who patronise traditional circuses in this country you may do well to consider taking out private health insurance.
 
Steve Robinson said:
Given the number of people who patronise traditional circuses in this country you may do well to consider taking out private health insurance.
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You know, I have to admit that I'm surprised so many of the circus troupes are still going around. High fuel prices and public liability insurance must hurt.
 
CGSwans said:
You know, I have to admit that I'm surprised so many of the circus troupes are still going around. High fuel prices and public liability insurance must hurt.
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Because they are totally unsubsidised they can only continue to operate because sufficient numbers of the public patronise them.

The public are voting with their ticket money to support traditional Aussie circuses with animals.

There are 4 circuses operating in Melbourne today and a fifth is on it's way to Melbourne via Gippsland. A sixth has just left Melbourne and is at Benalla today.
 
phoenix said:
i don't actually care if burma didn't get along with the elephants or not - not you, me hix, tarongas elephant keepers or anyone can say with certainty if that would or would not have worked out.

and if you agree with that statement - that none of us actually know what would happen. then how is my argument wrong and yours right?

because under the hix-robinson-jarkari-taronga policy - the zoo could have got it wrong. burma might have been happier.

under my policy - all avenues are explored. she might have ended up at dubbo after all. but there can be no doubt whatever happened, that the elephant ended up in the best situation possible.

and lastly - arna and gigi were hardly long-lost soul mates. they had only been living together a short time. yet we accept that those animals are happy at dubbo without their old handlers because they have eachother. yet you argue that a solitary elephant is best off staying with her handlers because her bond is closer to them than it could be with any other elephant.
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Phoenix - I'm not arguing that your policy is wrong or that some outcomes may or may not have eventuated. However, to put your policy into practice is going to involve trucking the elephants concerned from zoo to zoo in a hit and miss, trial and error fashion to find out who is compatible with who. We have no way of knowing in advance what grouping is going to work.

If an elephant is not compatible with an existing elephant or group, then a whole lot of needless stress is going to result for all concerned.

I am not arguing that Saigon may not be compatible with another elephant or elephants somewhere in Australia. I'm arguing that she is content with the elephant/human bond that exists in her present situation and that there is no welfare imperative to move her.

A friend of mine spent some time observing her during January and is convinced that she is very calm and content where she is. If she was agitated or off her tucker then yes, try a different social scenario for her. But right now, there's absolutely no need.

And I don't accept that Arna has been "happier at Dubbo". She is only now starting to put some weight back on. She lost condition terribly when she first went there - she really missed her circus lifestyle. Elephant keepers will tell you that she went crazy when her circus human family visited her - racing across the paddock to greet them, vocalising, lots of tactile contact through the fence. Real tear jerker stuff. The keepers at Dubbo had been quite concerned about her not doing well there.
 
normaeinstein said:
You see, most people look at animals commercially and here lies the problem with people and animal cruelty all over the world
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When the whole world turns without a single dollar passing hands, I'm going to fly down to Melbourne (it will be cheaper then I spose) and come straight to your door. Where you can say to me "I told you So!"


I won't be booking my lights anytime soon.

Does the Animal Libber group/movement I assume you are part of not have a single dollar to its name?

Everything has to be looked at commerically, wether it be animals, food supplies, you name it! Even Conservation work in the wild, even animal libber protests!
 
Steve Robinson said:
Phoenix - I'm not arguing that your policy is wrong or that some outcomes may or may not have eventuated. However, to put your policy into practice is going to involve trucking the elephants concerned from zoo to zoo in a hit and miss, trial and error fashion to find out who is compatible with who. We have no way of knowing in advance what grouping is going to work.
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true. but circus elephants are trucked around anyways right? i mean even if this particular elephant is only moved occasionally these days - she's pretty used to it. in the case of circus elephants we say they are conditioned to this kind of stuff.

Steve Robinson said:
If an elephant is not compatible with an existing elephant or group, then a whole lot of needless stress is going to result for all concerned.
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i probably wouldn't describe it as needless. but i guess we will have to just agree to disagree. i'm not pro removing elephants in their old age from their human carers at all costs. but think the issue of elephant company vs human company is usually worth a trial.

Steve Robinson said:
And I don't accept that Arna has been "happier at Dubbo". She is only now starting to put some weight back on. She lost condition terribly when she first went there - she really missed her circus lifestyle. Elephant keepers will tell you that she went crazy when her circus human family visited her - racing across the paddock to greet them, vocalising, lots of tactile contact through the fence. Real tear jerker stuff. The keepers at Dubbo had been quite concerned about her not doing well there.
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well thats unfortunate and i'll happily take your word for it.
 
phoenix said:
true. but circus elephants are trucked around anyways right? i mean even if this particular elephant is only moved occasionally these days - she's pretty used to it. in the case of circus elephants we say they are conditioned to this kind of stuff.
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The trucking is not the issue in the case of circus elephants - I've seen them go and load themselves on moving days. The trucking would be a big problem for zoo elephants who would also be subject to this policy when their mates die and they are the only one left at an institution. A good friend of mine was part of the team that conditioned Heman and Burma for the road trip to Dubbo. Although Burma had a circus background it was many years ago, and the conditioning process for the two took over a year.

And, for the record, I don't think that Taronga should have left Burma and Heman at Taronga. I think that ALL the Asians should have gone to Dubbo. But what would "trailer trash" know??? LOL!
 
phoenix said:
under my policy - all avenues are explored. she might have ended up at dubbo after all. but there can be no doubt whatever happened, that the elephant ended up in the best situation possible.
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Burma might have ended up in the best situation possible, but what about the other elephants? What if Burma seriously injured one of the new elephants? You'd now be complaining that the zoo should have known better and that an elephant was unnecessarily injured.


phoenix said:
i don't actually care if burma didn't get along with the elephants or not - not you, me hix, tarongas elephant keepers or anyone can say with certainty if that would or would not have worked out.
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That's true, but the people who work with elephants are in a better position to predict what would happen and weigh up the pros and cons - and risks.
 
Hix said:
Burma might have ended up in the best situation possible, but what about the other elephants? What if Burma seriously injured one of the new elephants? You'd now be complaining that the zoo should have known better and that an elephant was unnecessarily injured.
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what if mek kappah had injured dokkoon?

or for that matter what if bong su killed num oi? what if arna killed burma and then luk chai was stepped on by pornthip?

Hix said:
That's true, but the people who work with elephants are in a better position to predict what would happen and weigh up the pros and cons - and risks.
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still just predictions hix. they didn't seem to mind accepting the risk of integration when it inolved two non breeding circus elephants. did they?

besides, you know the protocols with anaimal introductions. and you know there is a few steps between shoving them in the exhibit together.
 
From memory Arna had been introduced to and spent a bit of time with all of the Ashtons girls (including Gigi) on a number of occasions, Maybe Steve can confirm.


Steve did Ashtons Elephants ever spend any time with you?
 
phoenix said:
what if mek kappah had injured dokkoon?

or for that matter what if bong su killed num oi? what if arna killed burma and then luk chai was stepped on by pornthip?

still just predictions hix. they didn't seem to mind accepting the risk of integration when it inolved two non breeding circus elephants. did they?

besides, you know the protocols with anaimal introductions. and you know there is a few steps between shoving them in the exhibit together.
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One of those first steps is assessing the risks and the perceived benefits. If the risk is too great, then you don't do it. Obviously, in the cases above, they considered the risks to be very low.

Regarding mixing Burma with the new animals, the risks would have been considered unacceptably high, based on her past behaviour.
 
Jarkari said:
From memory Arna had been introduced to and spent a bit of time with all of the Ashtons girls (including Gigi) on a number of occasions, Maybe Steve can confirm.


Steve did Ashtons Elephants ever spend any time with you?
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I have known Arna since she was my shoulder height and I have never known her to meet any of the Ashton elephants until Gigi came to stay.

No - the Ashton girls did not spend any time on my show.
 
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