Edinburgh Zoo Red River Hogs culled

Thinking about it, I wonder if it's meant to stop zoos covering up a disease outbreak by conveniently disposing of the bodies? If so sending the bodies to another zoo could potentially be even worse...

Definitely a law that needs a rethink.
 
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It's also why every animal pts by a vet has to have the method recorded to ensure that animal is disposed of correctly. It has been known for horses to be injected with something to knock them out before being shot, particularly those that are kept as pets. Animals killed this way should never enter into the food chain for any zoo animal, or any country for that matter as this can then be ingested by the consumer and cause problems. This is why all good zoos, members of organisations such as BIAZA, EAZA and WAZA have to keep such detailed records of all of its animals and what happens to them!
 
Like many others online, I was shocked to learn that baby animals are frequently bred in zoos, used to attract patrons, then disposed of when they're no longer tiny and cute. Wouldn't it be more practical to castrate the males, or keep them separate from the females and only allow them together for authorized reproduction? Yes, this would be less than natural, but life in a zoo is unnatural to begin with, so...

Do zoos in the USA routinely indulge in the "breed and cull" practice as well? If so, I will never set foot in a zoo again.
 
Hi Omegawolfmoon,
Please see the discussion on the Magdeburg Zoo tiger killing case so get an answer to your question.
I have followed this thread with great interest and I am quite glad that there are some sensible members on this list who want animals treated with respect and compassion.
Have a look at the man who runs Zoo News Digest. I suppose he has the sole prerogative ion deciding for the zoo world what should and should not be done.
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As can be expected there is a bit of a hullaballoo over the euthanasia of the Red River Hog piglets in Edinburgh. I am glad that once it became open knowledge that the zoo has been open about it. We really need to get people to understand that good zoos are managing species long term and not specimens. People need to understand euthanasia too. This is not cruel or malicious or unkind and it does not cause pain. Or rather it does. It causes pain to those who have been involved in the caring for these animals. But they understand. We need to spread this understanding. It is a difficult road especially with the Animal Rights cultists who don't want to understand anyway. Difficult too for some members of a certain zoo discussion group who again refuse to even to grasp at the tailcoats of understanding species management or how good zoos work. These piglets were cared about. I wonder how many domestic pigs were slaughtered in Scotland today that were not?"
My highest regards to those of you who have questioned the decision. Very rightly so.
 
Today's Scotland Herald :
Can we solve a pig of a problem without zoos? - Herald Scotland | Comment | Guest Commentary


Can we solve a pig of a problem without zoos?
0 comments

Published on 24 Oct 2010

Pig-related headlines are generally pretty easy for newspaper subeditors to write, so it was a curious day when the usual staples about saving bacon, going to market or even just being in the middle seemed far too glib.

It wasn’t just that the pigs in question – Edinburgh Zoo’s five-month-old red river hogs Sammi and Becca – had died, or even that they had been deliberately killed. After all, pigs are slaughtered in this country every day without mainstream outcry. What was different here was both the identity of the killer and the reason given for snuffing out the lives of young animals who were assumed to be in a place of safety.
 
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Have a look at the man who runs Zoo News Digest. I suppose he has the sole prerogative ion deciding for the zoo world what should and should not be done.

I am sure that Peter Dickinson never claimed 'sole prerogative'. He's entitled to his opinion, though (and it's a well-informed one, even if it is one you happen to disagree with).
 
I had a look at the 2007/08 EAZA Yearbook . At the end of 2008 there were 132 Red River Hogs in the programme which was to be upgraded to an EEP from a lower level of management . There was also a waiting list of 7 collections wanting the species .

The latest ISIS listing shows 207 Red River hogs in European collections - not quite the same as the EAZA listing but probably very similar . Even with high levels of piglet mortality , the population has expanded rapidly , highlighting the problem .

The EAZA Yearbook also states that the population is very inbred with few founders - probably all at Dusiburg . I am not aware of any new stock being introduced since then . Discussion on limiting the population notes the problems associated with female contraception but does not suggest castration of boars . It does say that a breed and cull policy should be considered .

I notice from ISIS that several UK collections now have female only groups . I am not certain whether a group of boars could be kept together .

This has long been one of my favourite mammals , I recall the pleasure of seeing the original Belfast animals , the first in the UK for many years . I do vaguely remember Bristol having one in the hoofstock house that also housed Beisa Oryx .
 
This has long been one of my favourite mammals , I do vaguely remember Bristol having one in the hoofstock house that also housed Beisa Oryx .

Mine too..

The Bristol animal you mention wasn't a Red River Hog, it was the nominate(?) form of Bushpig (grey colour).

In the 1960's Dudley had a fine single male (Thurston) and Paignton a decrepit single female- I believe they were the only ones in the UK at that time. After they died there were none until the 1990's Belfast/Port Lympne imports from Duisburg.

Another interesting fact has emerged about the Edinburgh hogs- they are described as two of a litter of five- so I wonder if the others were rehomed or DNS?
Also I wonder what will happen now to the most recent litter(4?) they have got- I suspect perhaps not another cull at this particular time?
 
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I wonder which other UK collections have also culled 'surplus' Red River Hogs without it being picked up .
 
Obviously not Woburn or Colchester.

Like you I noticed several '0.2' listings e.g. Jersey and now the Childe Beale Trust at Pangbourne as well. Maybe they won't be adding males now, although I can't see why castrated males couldn't be considered where breeding isn't required.
 
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I have just read through all the posts on the red river hog cull at Edinburgh Zoo and most of the points that support the actions of the zoo have been made, except one that may have been mentioned in one message, but certainly warrants further discussion.

For those who contributed their thoughts on the subject and were of the opinion that it was completely inappropriate of the zoo to make such a decision, do they honestly think that this was an easy decision for the staff, at whatever level? Do they think that if there really were alternate avenues that would not compromise the welfare of the individual animals or the breeding programme that they would not have been explored? Do they think that those zoos that maintain a holier than thou attitude when it comes to euthanasia and stop their animals from breeding, which stifles behaviour and increasingly makes females sick, and then goes to ludicrous lengths to keep geriatric animals alive at all costs, which is highly questionable on pure animal welfare grounds, is actually more moral than a collection like Edinburgh that lives up to the high ideals of population management and is prepared to make what are unquestionably hard and as we have seen, unpopular decisions?

It is collections like Edinburgh and Copenhagen and bold staff like those at Magdeburg that are paving the way forward and demonstrating how captive populations need to be managed if they are to be viable long term. The reactions of elements of the animal welfare community are to be expected, but we should have been at a point where the issue of culling of individuals within zoo populations for perfectly legitimate and justifiable reasons would generate the same minimal media backlash as an annual cull of a species within a national park or game reserve.

The red river hog youngsters had names, but then so do the milk cows on many dairy farms. The staff at the zoo were thrilled by the birth and rearing of the young hogs, which is understandable as it verifies that their husbandry was correct. If, for arguments sake, it was always going to be the intention to euthanase them, would it have been better for the zoo not to have been so publicly proud of the birth and for the babies to have been referred to by their animal records number rather than a name?

My point is that it does not take an enormous leap of faith given all that has happened in recent days that Edinburgh Zoo made what they believed to be the informed choice, and given the demonstrated interest and understanding of zoos and the people who work in them by most on this forum, that this decision, because of its difficult nature, was almost definitely hard for all the staff at Edinburgh.

The difficult decisions are never easy, and neither should they be, but they are often the correct ones. I believe that the people who made the decision to cull the red river hogs probably hated having to do it, but understood why it was the correct thing to do. The least that the rest of us looking in from the outside can do is give them the benefit of the doubt and respect them for having the professionalism to do what they did.
 
Professionalism?, well surely their talents are wasted working in a humble zoo, wouldn't they be better employed in a slaughter house, stunning the bullocks.
 
Reading these posts made me think about the media's portrayal of zoos in general...

firstly - a bit off topic for this thread but connected to the role of the media - they often talk about cages and animals being behind bars. This is often when they are emotively comparing the circumstances of wild and captive animals when, as I said in another thread, to see animals actually behind bars you would need to go a long way these days.

The other - much more relevant to this thread - is that they focus on individual animals and assume that zoos do too, essentially seeing them as glorified donkey sanctuaries rather than looking at the bigger picture of species management/conservation. You could argue that the zoos encourage this through their press releases and photo calls.

Many non-zoo people share this view of zoos. A friend of mine thought of fundraising for ZSL as being in the same category as charities such as Battersea dogs and cats home or donkey sanctuaries rather than environmental or sustainablity-linked non-proffits.

I feel the zoo strongly projects itself as being in the latter category (and after we visited together she appreciated this) but the media still puts zoos in the first, or even worse, in the circus and theme park category.
 
Professionalism?, well surely their talents are wasted working in a humble zoo, wouldn't they be better employed in a slaughter house, stunning the bullocks.

That is a crass and inappropriate remark.

This is a forum for debating, discussing and (sometimes) arguing over things in an intelligent and reasoned manner. Your comment is none of those things. As my mother once said, "if you've not got anything sensible to say it's best to keep your mouth closed".

I'm not saying this because I disagree with your perspective (though I do), but contrast your juvenile response with Animal Rights (and others) well argued posts.
 
From reading some of the posts on here, an uninformed reader might assume that red river hog sows will go into some kind of anaphylactic shock if they are not allowed to pump out litters of piglets every six months....

I haven't heard anything from another UK zoo coming out in defence of Edinburgh. I wonder whether the likes of Woburn and Colchester have avoided culls by choosing to accommodate larger groups of this species, or if indeed they have also culled some of their group since the ESB converted to an EEP.

I recognise there is a need to ensure there is space to breed more endangered suids, such as Visayan warty pigs. I would include babirusa, however without fresh imports this species is on its way out in Europe. I would also make the point that there are many individuals of female wild pig species in UK zoos which have never bred, often despite attempts to get them to, that have had a perfectly acceptable quality of life and educated the visiting public.

Flamingoland chose to rehome its remaining fallow deer a few years ago, to an estate with a deer park, where they would possibly be culled when they reached old age. I think this was a gesture of taking responsibility for animals which had served a purpose for many years at the zoo and assessing that there was an opportunity to retire them somewhere. I don't think this was wasted resources, it would have generated some good publicity for the zoo.

Longleat has been complemented by the addition of bachelor groups of nyala, bongo, and warthog in recent years. Yes, the warthog are all males. These animals could all have been culled with similar justifications to those made on this thread.

If Edinburgh did indeed have the two red river hogs on EAZA surplus lists since their birth, then they should have admitted they were wrong to have allowed further breeding to take place. If they had always just accepted they would follow whatever orders the program coordinator might give them, including to cull, then they should not have used the birth of the hogs to generate publicity.

I am not anti-zoo, but I get frustrated when some of our best UK zoological collections and conservation charities try to act like off-exhibit scientific facilities. Fine, if that's what they are, but they're not. The main funders of UK zoos are the paying public. A proportion of the public may be sentimental, or illogical in their expectations of zoo animal management at times, however it is unbelievably pompous to assert that they need to be 'made to understand' culling of healthy stock, when they are essentially the funding body that keeps UK zoological institutions alive.
 
Edinbrough haven't even managed to get anything out of this. It was worthless and more importantly it involved killing. All very unnecissary and its surprising some members on here are actually supporting this!!

Why not just get rid of RR Hogs if they're that much trouble?
 
Well said Johnstoni, as for you Mr. Shorts, you mention animal rights, well what about human rights? I thought in this country we had a right to free speech. regarding Shirokuma's comment about the media putting zoos into the circus category, well we all know what happened to animal circuses in this country. I recall a well known circus proprietor saying that when the animal rights groups have finished off the circus completely they will then concentrate on zoos, if indeed this has not started to happen already. Imagine the scenario,turning up at Edinburgh,Chester or wherever and be greeted by people demonstrating at the gate requesting you not to go in. The red river hog episode only serves to fuel the fire. For your information I am not on the side of animal rights organisations or indeed the circus proprietor, I am on the side of the ANIMALS without which you cannot have a zoo. As for your comment about me having similar views to animal rights groups, I think you will find that your comments about the zoo you have loved since childhood reflect the views of the antis.
 
Imagine the scenario,turning up at Edinburgh,Chester or wherever and be greeted by people demonstrating at the gate requesting you not to go in.

That did happen some years back for a while at some UK zoos, such as London, Bristol etc which were targeted by anti-zoo groups.
 
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