Uneducated? I don't profess to be a mastermind with a string of letters after my name, however I do know that when asked a question you should answer it, I repeat how would you like to be walked around with a hook behind your ear and be given an electric shock up your arse?
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Zoo Knoxville Knoxville Zoo elephant keeper killed
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Uneducated? I don't profess to be a mastermind with a string of letters after my name, however I do know that when asked a question you should answer it, I repeat how would you like to be walked around with a hook behind your ear and be given an electric shock up your arse?
Your question is irrelevant to me as I have never shocked an elephant and have worked with them. I have never even considered purchasing a shocking device. As for the hook, I used to use the hook on trainees and volunteers and encouraged them to use it on me. You really have no idea do you?
Peter Dickinson
Well-Known Member
An interesting discussion. Free contact or protected contact? I reckon that given a vote that 95% of keepers working in free contact would prefer to stay that way regardless of the risks. I also believe that more than 50% of keepers who moved over from free contact to protected contact would move back if they had the choice.
People do get very emotional about elephants. That is a good thing but it quickly clouds judgement and that is when all are judged as the same. One zoo is bad...so all zoos are bad or one elephant keeper is bad so all elephant keepers are bad. It just is not so. I would be the first to agree that there are bad elephant people out there, but they are slowly disappearing...not fast enough for me, but there are bad in all walks of life.
My thoughts on the issues discussed so far are in my article Elephant Care Elephant Care
You don't have to agree with a word I say. We are different. I genuinely care about the welfare of captive elephants, I believe you do too.
People do get very emotional about elephants. That is a good thing but it quickly clouds judgement and that is when all are judged as the same. One zoo is bad...so all zoos are bad or one elephant keeper is bad so all elephant keepers are bad. It just is not so. I would be the first to agree that there are bad elephant people out there, but they are slowly disappearing...not fast enough for me, but there are bad in all walks of life.
My thoughts on the issues discussed so far are in my article Elephant Care Elephant Care
You don't have to agree with a word I say. We are different. I genuinely care about the welfare of captive elephants, I believe you do too.
i have seen good elephant keepers and bad ones
the bad ones didn't last too long, usually the elephant sorted them out
and some have been badly injured
have only ever seen one ankus that was designed to inflict pain used by a handler
that handler was dealt to by humans
different handlers have different personalities as do the animals they handle
some need PC some FC
some of my best relationships have been with elephants
the bad ones didn't last too long, usually the elephant sorted them out
and some have been badly injured
have only ever seen one ankus that was designed to inflict pain used by a handler
that handler was dealt to by humans
different handlers have different personalities as do the animals they handle
some need PC some FC
some of my best relationships have been with elephants
Interesting discussion going on here. First the world isn't black and white. There are many captive elephants out there, which are not kept under optimal conditions and which got a history, so some/many can profit a lot of free contact with a responsible keeper, as the example mentioned above by Jarkari. But this is not the way elephants should be keep. Imho the ideal way to present elephants in zoos would be a grown herd of related femals and a breading bull or a group of bull elephants of different age. The enclosure should be very spacious and contain a lot of possibilities for enrichment. Same way as you would show any species of antelope.
Protected contact would be best, as there is no reason to interfere with the social structure of the herd and it's safer for the keepers anyway.
Now I got two simple questions for the people supporting free contact:
1) Is free contact possible without dominating the animal?
2) If not, how do you dominate the animal without inflicting physical pain?
(If you disagree with any of my statements tell me please.)
Protected contact would be best, as there is no reason to interfere with the social structure of the herd and it's safer for the keepers anyway.
Now I got two simple questions for the people supporting free contact:
1) Is free contact possible without dominating the animal?
2) If not, how do you dominate the animal without inflicting physical pain?
(If you disagree with any of my statements tell me please.)
@Peter Dickinson I have read your well writen hub about elephant care and I agree in many points.
There you really praise the ankus but you don't go into detail, why there is no other tool for handling elephants in free contact. Could you please elaborate on those details a little here? Is it maybe, cos all elphants just know it from there very beginning? Could you use something else if the elephants grew up with it without knowing an ankus?
There you really praise the ankus but you don't go into detail, why there is no other tool for handling elephants in free contact. Could you please elaborate on those details a little here? Is it maybe, cos all elphants just know it from there very beginning? Could you use something else if the elephants grew up with it without knowing an ankus?
Interesting discussion going on here. First the world isn't black and white. There are many captive elephants out there, which are not kept under optimal conditions and which got a history, so some/many can profit a lot of free contact with a responsible keeper, as the example mentioned above by Jarkari. But this is not the way elephants should be keep. Imho the ideal way to present elephants in zoos would be a grown herd of related femals and a breading bull or a group of bull elephants of different age. The enclosure should be very spacious and contain a lot of possibilities for enrichment. Same way as you would show any species of antelope.
Protected contact would be best, as there is no reason to interfere with the social structure of the herd and it's safer for the keepers anyway.
Now I got two simple questions for the people supporting free contact:
1) Is free contact possible without dominating the animal?
2) If not, how do you dominate the animal without inflicting physical pain?
(If you disagree with any of my statements tell me please.)
If you could achieve the keeping conditions you have mentioned then yeah there would be very little reason to interfere, However that is not possible in just about every zoo. When zoos recieve an animal; they are usually already broken (if they come from traditional camps.) If the baby is born at the zoo there is no need at all for the animal to be dominated. It will follow the rest of the herd which will already be following the keepers.
Positive reinforcement is used in free contact just as much, if not more than protected contact.
But this is what we are talking about, the ultimate goal. All big zoos in Europe (the area I know best) phase out the keeping of single or small groups of elephants. New animals are only added by captive birth in zoos. Of course this will take years/decades as elephants are long lived.If you could achieve the keeping conditions you have mentioned then yeah there would be very little reason to interfere
And I don't thing it is adequate anymore to show elephants single or in pairs.
As I understand protected contact, ONLY positive reinforcement was used.Positive reinforcement is used in free contact just as much, if not more than protected contact.
Is this true? So why then zoo born elephants are considered the most dangerous?If the baby is born at the zoo there is no need at all for the animal to be dominated. It will follow the rest of the herd which will already be following the keepers.
Because elephants from traditional countries do get broken, which can be quite violent and painful for the calves (emotionally). Zoo born elephants don't need to be broken to learn behaviours as they follow their mums. Breaking the elephant establishes dominance as would be established in the wild. The zoo born elephants are more likely to try and push boundaries and test heirarchy good managers can try to work with this.
Before anyone kicks up a stink about breaking elephants this is most commonly done where traditional handling methods are used or some circuses that breed their own elephants. It is the same as breaking a horse or a camel to accept a rider.
Before anyone kicks up a stink about breaking elephants this is most commonly done where traditional handling methods are used or some circuses that breed their own elephants. It is the same as breaking a horse or a camel to accept a rider.
Peter Dickinson
Well-Known Member
@Peter Dickinson I have read your well writen hub about elephant care and I agree in many points.
There you really praise the ankus but you don't go into detail, why there is no other tool for handling elephants in free contact. Could you please elaborate on those details a little here? Is it maybe, cos all elphants just know it from there very beginning? Could you use something else if the elephants grew up with it without knowing an ankus?
Thank you for your comment.
I think I should really throw the ball into your court Daniel. What would be the design of the tool you would use for free contact work with elephants? I have worked 'ankus free' part of the time back in the old days. Much can, and is, done by voice command. Elephants are very much like children and respond to both praise and scorn. I prefer an ankus to lift and hold a foot, to reach any given point on an elephant, to scrape a bit of loose dead skin or wet straw off its back, to reach a chain from under her body, to prod her away if she playfully pushes me towards a wall, to hold her steady for an injection....and so much more. Happily and luckily I have loved (and yes I am being anthromorphic because I believe it is essential for good animal keepers) and been loved by the elephants I worked with. Most zoo elephant keepers I know are the same. But sometimes you do get into tight corners, the ankus is the perfect tool for the job.
Yes Peter, I just like yourself genuinely care about the welfare of the elephants and I find it encouraging that other people using this site care. I also care about the welfare of the keepers who look after them and remember the keepers who have died following incidents with elephants. Just like the young lady at Knoxville they all loved their work with the elephants and dedicated their lives to their care. It is nearly always the case that the families of the deceased keepers make it known that they do not blame the animal and do not want the elephant to be destroyed. I think in the future free contact with elephants will become a thing of the past on health and safety grounds, it will be a requirement of the zoo license that the elephants are under protected contact only. I admit this does have its disadvantages, at Blackpool the elephants are no longer walked to a nearby grazing area and their current outside accommodation is not exactly great.Also who can say that there is a more pleasant sight in these zoos of ours than seeing the Whipsnade herd out on the downs?An interesting discussion. Free contact or protected contact? I reckon that given a vote that 95% of keepers working in free contact would prefer to stay that way regardless of the risks. I also believe that more than 50% of keepers who moved over from free contact to protected contact would move back if they had the choice.
People do get very emotional about elephants. That is a good thing but it quickly clouds judgement and that is when all are judged as the same. One zoo is bad...so all zoos are bad or one elephant keeper is bad so all elephant keepers are bad. It just is not so. I would be the first to agree that there are bad elephant people out there, but they are slowly disappearing...not fast enough for me, but there are bad in all walks of life.
My thoughts on the issues discussed so far are in my article Elephant Care Elephant Care
You don't have to agree with a word I say. We are different. I genuinely care about the welfare of captive elephants, I believe you do too.
"If the baby is born at the zoo there is no need at all for the animal to be dominated. It will follow the rest of the herd which will already be following the keepers."
Jarkiri, this is complete ********. It seems you have zero knowledge about the training of captive born elephant calves and the problems that come with it. It seems you haven`t followed any of the tragic stories (for both elephants and humans) that have happened in european and US zoos in the last years.
Captive born calves don`t obey to the keepers just because their mothers do. Most will try to treat the keepers the same like other elephants, trying to play rough with them, push them. So what do you do then, as a keeper in free contact?! You can`t allow a calf to push you, run you over, right?
A lot of zoos openly admit what they do if their ele calves (esp. the bulls) try to knock down/push keepers - they the the ankus and beat them to teach them that this is unacceptable behavoir.
Just 2 examples: Abu, bull L.a. born 2001 in Vienna. Visitors complained about keepers beating him when he was just a jew months old. The zoo justified the violence as necessary because he was not behaving. In 2005, Abu was not even 4 years old, he killed the head keeper. Later, a secretly taken video showed how the keepers breaking the female calf Mongu. She had a rope around her belly with erveral men pulling until she fell. Repeatedly. She was screaming like hell. It should still be possible to find it in the net if someone is interested.
Thabo-Umasai, half-brother of Abu, born in 2006 in Dresden zoo. Visitors complained about keepers beating him when he was just a few months old. The zoo justified it as necessary. In 2010, Thabo attacked 2 keepers (incl. the head keeper) in the outside enclosure and almost killed one of them. She is still not back at work and will probably never recover. Since that, poor Thabo is kept seperated from the females since the zoo isn`t willingly to use pc with the females.
In both cases, the local press covered the beatings and what the zoos had to say to it extensivly so that the whole story from the early beginning until the attacks are well documented.
2 more incidents in 2 other zoos:
In 2009, a keeper was caught beating african elephant calf Panya in Animal Park Berlin. The zoo (you should already know what they said...) justified it as necessary.
A few months later, Panya`s mother Bibi attacked and injured a keeper and the 2 were sent to Halle zoo where at least Bibi is now handled in pc.
And the last example to prove that this is not limited to german-speaking zoos: I have personally seen how a senior keeper in Whipsnade prodded an elephant calf repeatedly with the bullhook to keep it in line during one of those "great" walks so that the skin broke and the calf had serveral small bleeding wounds.
This is not isolated misbehavoir of a few, ill-guided keepers, this is the system of training zoo born elephant calves in free contact. Thankfully, the majority of zoos in Europe which breed elephants use pc now.
Jarkiri, this is complete ********. It seems you have zero knowledge about the training of captive born elephant calves and the problems that come with it. It seems you haven`t followed any of the tragic stories (for both elephants and humans) that have happened in european and US zoos in the last years.
Captive born calves don`t obey to the keepers just because their mothers do. Most will try to treat the keepers the same like other elephants, trying to play rough with them, push them. So what do you do then, as a keeper in free contact?! You can`t allow a calf to push you, run you over, right?
A lot of zoos openly admit what they do if their ele calves (esp. the bulls) try to knock down/push keepers - they the the ankus and beat them to teach them that this is unacceptable behavoir.
Just 2 examples: Abu, bull L.a. born 2001 in Vienna. Visitors complained about keepers beating him when he was just a jew months old. The zoo justified the violence as necessary because he was not behaving. In 2005, Abu was not even 4 years old, he killed the head keeper. Later, a secretly taken video showed how the keepers breaking the female calf Mongu. She had a rope around her belly with erveral men pulling until she fell. Repeatedly. She was screaming like hell. It should still be possible to find it in the net if someone is interested.
Thabo-Umasai, half-brother of Abu, born in 2006 in Dresden zoo. Visitors complained about keepers beating him when he was just a few months old. The zoo justified it as necessary. In 2010, Thabo attacked 2 keepers (incl. the head keeper) in the outside enclosure and almost killed one of them. She is still not back at work and will probably never recover. Since that, poor Thabo is kept seperated from the females since the zoo isn`t willingly to use pc with the females.
In both cases, the local press covered the beatings and what the zoos had to say to it extensivly so that the whole story from the early beginning until the attacks are well documented.
2 more incidents in 2 other zoos:
In 2009, a keeper was caught beating african elephant calf Panya in Animal Park Berlin. The zoo (you should already know what they said...) justified it as necessary.
A few months later, Panya`s mother Bibi attacked and injured a keeper and the 2 were sent to Halle zoo where at least Bibi is now handled in pc.
And the last example to prove that this is not limited to german-speaking zoos: I have personally seen how a senior keeper in Whipsnade prodded an elephant calf repeatedly with the bullhook to keep it in line during one of those "great" walks so that the skin broke and the calf had serveral small bleeding wounds.
This is not isolated misbehavoir of a few, ill-guided keepers, this is the system of training zoo born elephant calves in free contact. Thankfully, the majority of zoos in Europe which breed elephants use pc now.
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Using the word "beatings" is to much. In my experience elephants respond more to "energies", positive or negative, rather than the physical contact. I find it ludicris to think a person can "beat" an elephant. With every elephant I have worked with I have seen them drop 150+ pound logs, tires and boomer balls on there head , back and toes and they don't even react. Honestly a person with an angkus cannot, I repeat, cannot remotely come close to the force an elephant can inflict on another elephant. Its not even close.
I agree if there is another tool that can be used rather than an angkus I would use it but it also is how you use that tool. Its not supposed to inflict pain but rather used as a guide as Peter mentioned. Good elephant keepers know this but unfortunately there are bad apples but like mentioned before they are weeded out by fellow elephant caretakers and the elephants themselves.
@ Tarzan- I have been cattle proded and, yes, it is not comfortable but its not this awful pain. Its more of a numbing feeling (and I'm a 200 lbs human not a 10,000 lbs elephant). By the way are you a PETA member?
@Daniel- to answer your questions, yes you have to be dominent over your elephant because, like young kids, they will try to get away with things you don't want them to. and second, like I mentioned, its near possible to inflict pain. Its more of an annoyence. My elephants responded to "energies" I produced to show I'm the boss. The tone of voice and the feeling I express had more of an affect than using the angkus. Once again it is like a child and like children elephants know when they are doing something that they shouldn't just by my voice. Very rarely did I use my angkus in a corrective manner and when I did it was absolutely necessary. When I was trained around elephants I was not even allowed to pick up an angkus until I could have them do their behaviors just by my voice. Also if I'm not mistaken it is a federal law that angkus are required when elephants are allowed to be in contact with the public. And I know, some zoochatters would ask "why would they be in contact with the public?". Answer: because there is no better way to contect the public and have them care and educate them about the species than to have them be able to touch or feed an elephant. Same is true with most species.
I agree if there is another tool that can be used rather than an angkus I would use it but it also is how you use that tool. Its not supposed to inflict pain but rather used as a guide as Peter mentioned. Good elephant keepers know this but unfortunately there are bad apples but like mentioned before they are weeded out by fellow elephant caretakers and the elephants themselves.
@ Tarzan- I have been cattle proded and, yes, it is not comfortable but its not this awful pain. Its more of a numbing feeling (and I'm a 200 lbs human not a 10,000 lbs elephant). By the way are you a PETA member?
@Daniel- to answer your questions, yes you have to be dominent over your elephant because, like young kids, they will try to get away with things you don't want them to. and second, like I mentioned, its near possible to inflict pain. Its more of an annoyence. My elephants responded to "energies" I produced to show I'm the boss. The tone of voice and the feeling I express had more of an affect than using the angkus. Once again it is like a child and like children elephants know when they are doing something that they shouldn't just by my voice. Very rarely did I use my angkus in a corrective manner and when I did it was absolutely necessary. When I was trained around elephants I was not even allowed to pick up an angkus until I could have them do their behaviors just by my voice. Also if I'm not mistaken it is a federal law that angkus are required when elephants are allowed to be in contact with the public. And I know, some zoochatters would ask "why would they be in contact with the public?". Answer: because there is no better way to contect the public and have them care and educate them about the species than to have them be able to touch or feed an elephant. Same is true with most species.
Thank you for your comment.
I think I should really throw the ball into your court Daniel. What would be the design of the tool you would use for free contact work with elephants? I have worked 'ankus free' part of the time back in the old days. Much can, and is, done by voice command. Elephants are very much like children and respond to both praise and scorn. I prefer an ankus to lift and hold a foot, to reach any given point on an elephant, to scrape a bit of loose dead skin or wet straw off its back, to reach a chain from under her body, to prod her away if she playfully pushes me towards a wall, to hold her steady for an injection....and so much more. Happily and luckily I have loved (and yes I am being anthromorphic because I believe it is essential for good animal keepers) and been loved by the elephants I worked with. Most zoo elephant keepers I know are the same. But sometimes you do get into tight corners, the ankus is the perfect tool for the job.
Thx Peter for your explanation. I agree that the ankus is a perfect tool for handling elephants. Over thousands of years time it has been develop and adapted to it's current use.
The point I wanted to get at was, that even if you use an ankus with blunt ends (there will always be a point left) you can use it for negative reinforcements (i.e. physical pain) on the animal. The asian mahouts know some hundred trigger points (if pressed hard enough will cause physical pain) to control the elephant. I guess the most famous is right behind the ear and you can only pull an elephanst head down cos it causes pain to an animal which does not respond, otherwise a human would never be strong enough.
Can you handle an elephant in free contact without breaking it before?
@Jarkari And no, it's not the same as with a horse.
Then I would choose my words more carefully in the future. People will get the wrong impression.
They can think what what they like, I am on the side of the elephants, and for the record over the years I have developed a skin as thick as the animals we are now discussing, so put your cattle prodder away .
@loxodonta Only now read your words.
Of course if an elephant is well trained and accepts your dominance you barely need the ankus and can lead it by voice alone. The question is, how did you reach that state? If the elephant is still small men can very well beat it up. And as already stated in my last comment if you press the right trigger points you can cause pain as well as some other elephant.
Of course if an elephant is well trained and accepts your dominance you barely need the ankus and can lead it by voice alone. The question is, how did you reach that state? If the elephant is still small men can very well beat it up. And as already stated in my last comment if you press the right trigger points you can cause pain as well as some other elephant.
@Daniel-The calves I have seen trained are done so through positive re-enforcement, trust and restraints. It starts with getting an elephant to lie down which is the most difficult behavior to acheive. When the calf lies down on its own the trainer would give the command and if the calf stayed it was rewarded. This is done for up to a year and during that time the calf starts to build trust in the trainer in that when it lies down nothing bad happens to it and it is rewarded. The restraints come in when you need the elephant to stretch, present its feet or move/back up. And before everyone starts crying about using the restraints, they are made of fleece and the mother is present. Similar to before, when you want the desired behavior, you give the command, guide the elephant with the restraints (and use the angkus, in the sessions I watched the trainer used it when they wanted the calf to present a foot by touching the calves foot while it was holding it up) and rewarding it when it did the desired behavior. I never saw a calf in distress while vieing these sessions. It is true the older methods used in the country were harsh (and even harsher in there native countries which still goes on today) but with all the watchdog groups now a days in this country it is near impossible to do it they old way. And there are more sensitive points on an elephant than in other areas but like I stated its more of an annoyence than pain. And I re-read my post, what is your issue with it?
@Tarzan- Your last post was rather childish but people are who they are. I have excepted that over the years.
In the end people are going to do what they want. They are going to be PC or FC and we are going to have to live with it, regardless your stance on it. Having done both styles I do prefer FC because of the way the elephants behave mentally and physically. As long as the elephants are well taken care of and the ultimate goal is to save this species I don't have a problem with the way they are handled. To many people have such narrow views and forget the purpose of why these animals are in captivity.
@Tarzan- Your last post was rather childish but people are who they are. I have excepted that over the years.
In the end people are going to do what they want. They are going to be PC or FC and we are going to have to live with it, regardless your stance on it. Having done both styles I do prefer FC because of the way the elephants behave mentally and physically. As long as the elephants are well taken care of and the ultimate goal is to save this species I don't have a problem with the way they are handled. To many people have such narrow views and forget the purpose of why these animals are in captivity.