ZSL London Zoo London Zoo Notes.

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CZJimmy said:
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Why couldn't they keep that foliage!!
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They did keep all the foliage, in fact that bank of plants at the back looks stunning now, some of it is at least 6ft tall. Only I doubt the animals will ever get to mess it up a little. The trees on the right have stayed, as this is London's 'sparrow hedge', apparently its where they can nest as the only 150 sparrows in regents park live at london zoo (then they would, rich pickings and all).

I wish, but I sincerely doubt the bonobos comment was anything other than a mix up. Although, I can kind of see London's point of fixing what they have and doing right by zaire and not messing these three apes around anymore. If they can make it all work, amazing.

The grasses are an improvement, but last time I looked on wikipedia gorillas weren't a grassland animal : ) , then again how else do you make a forest 'clearing' look authentic minus the forest? Maybe they should go for a 'gorillas of the pampas' effect like bristol. Seriously though, they all looked more relaxed and it will be a fantastic space once the group is a little larger and settled with eachother.
 
^Chris^ said:
No, I didn't, but like you I noted the sign. It was Diana Monkeys in there.
Had the ground hornbill been removed from this area? I saw that the black-winged stilt had been removed from the aviary, I presume they are in the bird house now? I've uploaded my pics.
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There was a pair of ground hornbill in the largest (combined set of) aviaries in the old parrot house, the first you see as you approach it from the Sobell. I wasn't aware they had tried them in Gorilla Kingdom, where were they kept?

Yes I'm pretty sure the black winged stilts are in the Blackburn pavillion, although the only aviary I didn't visit was the African Bird Safari so I don't know what was in there.
 
johnstoni said:
There was a pair of ground hornbill in the largest (combined set of) aviaries in the old parrot house, the first you see as you approach it from the Sobell. I wasn't aware they had tried them in Gorilla Kingdom, where were they kept?

Yes I'm pretty sure the black winged stilts are in the Blackburn pavillion, although the only aviary I didn't visit was the African Bird Safari so I don't know what was in there.
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Ground Hornbills were kept with a primate species, I can't remember if it was diana monkeys or mangabeys, but I seem to think it was in the large west facing enclosure where the dianas were this time I visited.
 
johnstoni said:
T I can kind of see London's point of fixing what they have and doing right by zaire and not messing these three apes around anymore. If they can make it all work, amazing.
Seriously though, they all looked more relaxed and it will be a fantastic space once the group is a little larger and settled with eachother.
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I think they will be very, very lucky to get these Gorillas breeding while they have the current male Bobby/Bongo. Both females are proven with other males(Zaire, one baby, Effie, two babies) but I think it will be 'o' babies for the forseeable future. I believe they ould like to add a third female to the group but it seems a bit pointless at present.

If they'd kept the previous male 'jock' things could already be very different. He got along fine with 'Zaire'- I have a photo of them together, she is looking at him admiringly and with no sign of any missing hair... They got rid of him too soon, but Bristol knew what they were doing- they received a good male in exchange for a nonbreeder....
 
With his disposition though, I wonder if all that glass would really have suited him? Does Bobby mate with either of the females?
 
johnstoni said:
With his disposition though, I wonder if all that glass would really have suited him? Does Bobby mate with either of the females?
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I reckon Jock would have been fine in GK. Remember he sits behind glass nearly all day long at Bristol in a comparatively small indoor area- he rarely shows any interest in the public. London wanted him to go as he wouldn't get along with one or other of the old non-breeding Czech females (Messy & Minouche)- but their acquisition was a total waste and they sent them home again anyway....

Does Bobby/Bongo mate? Thats the $million question and I've still not been able to get an answer anywhere!! At Bristol Romina was his longstanding 'platonic' partner but I was told that he didn't mate Salome either... the only reaction I ever saw between them was hostile.
 
well if effie is such a beauty as the press releases would have us believe, you'd expect maybe the answer to be yes. As with so much about captive gorillas, I'm sure it's not been so straightforward.

Yes, good point about Jock, he tolerate the public enough at Bristol to sit by the glass for long periods. I'm not sure Bristol would really have known it would turn out so well, their two females had been in some ways 'written off' as potential breeders. It's impressive that fertility treatment and eye surgery resulted in two offspring.
 
johnstoni said:
well if effie is such a beauty as the press releases would have us believe, you'd expect maybe the answer to be yes. As with so much about captive gorillas, I'm sure it's not been so straightforward.

Yes, good point about Jock, he tolerate the public enough at Bristol to sit by the glass for long periods. I'm not sure Bristol would really have known it would turn out so well, their two females had been in some ways 'written off' as potential breeders. It's impressive that fertility treatment and eye surgery resulted in two offspring.
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Effie used to live in Berlin but was disruptive in their group so was moved to Leipzig (supposedly so she could learn mother-rearing). She was disruptive there too so was moved again- this time to London. She's had two babies at Berlin, both were handraised. She may do better in a very small group like London's but it depends how motivated Bobby is as to whether they breed- he has a poor social background and isn't a very dominant animal. I cannot find out if he mates or not(thats the $ million question...)

Jock at Bristol IS a very dominant male and aggressive to(some)females on first introduction. He bit poor 'Salome' so hard she had a huge open gash on her elbow yet now they are the perfect settled family... It is impressive they've managed to get both females at Bristol breeding, both are from lines with little or no other representation so the babies, despite both being male, are very valuable. (Salome actually had a couple of miscarriages by the previous male 'Klaus' and one stillbirth by Jock, and Romina had one before Namoki. Also I think Romina would have become pregnant a long time previously despite her cataracts, given a proven male. I'm expecting to hear that she is pregnant again soon.)
 
Its interesting how Chessington zoo has done well with Gorllias and is a fun park and yet London zoo is the National zoo of the Uk has really not done as well, what do you UK guys think about that, any thoughts?
 
MARK said:
Its interesting how Chessington zoo has done well with Gorllias and is a fun park and yet London zoo is the National zoo of the Uk has really not done as well, what do you UK guys think about that, any thoughts?
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Its all down to the individual animals + management. London have mostly had a succession of unsuitable males and females. The one time they had the basis for a group (in the early 1980's) they foolishly sent the two young homebred females to another zoo and the mothers (Zaire and Salome), ceased breeding. They haven't bred another gorilla since!

Chessington's group took a long time to get going properly too but once they did it worked fine very similar to a Howletts group(they also had a very good ex-Howletts keeper too).
 
It was! Mind you, the enclosure was really too small for four females, but if they'd kept the two daughters and then later exchanged their father(who was cHessington's male anyway) for an unrelated male, they might have had a group of 20 by now!
 
As mentioned elsewhere on this forum, Chessington may have partly done so well due to its 'howletts-style' facilitiy. The resemblance of their enclosure to the ones a Howletts is significant, as it impacts their management. The old London enclosure was also a covered caged, and was not a very tall one, plus the network of diagonal and horizontal bars across the tops section of the Sobell cages seemed inappropriate for locomotion by any kind of primate, more a design feature, and were avoided by the gorillas for most of the time. They really had little option but to keep the group small. In later years they at least combined the original chimpanzee area with this cage but by then the zoo had an unsuitable group (1.3) for breeding anyway.
 
johnstoni said:
. In later years they at least combined the original chimpanzee area with this cage but by then the zoo had an unsuitable group (1.3) for breeding anyway.
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The trouble was they had a succession of males which were either nonbreeder (Jeremiah) died (Jomie) or aggressive(Jock) and that was the main problem. Also 'Zaire' was the only suitably aged female for breeding really.. It was a total mess( and not much better now...)
 
can you speculate as to why Jock was unsuccessful with Zaire in London but fathered young in Bristol with a female of similar age?
 
johnstoni said:
can you speculate as to why Jock was unsuccessful with Zaire in London but fathered young in Bristol with a female of similar age?
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Yes, I can speculate...

Initially Jock was put with all three females but soon proved incompatible with one of the old ones(Messy). So the two old 'Czech' ones were kept seperate and Jock was with Zaire who got along fine with him. I don't know for sure if they mated, but strongly suspect that they did. But having these two 'pairs' was an unsatisfactory situation which is why they exchanged with Bristol to get a gentler male. I think if Jock/Zaire had had longer together, she may have got pregnant. I would also like to have seen her go to Bristol with Jock but of course London kept her. (Ironically when Bobby arrived, the females ganged up on HIM....)
 
Mjukuu, female, born 1999 in Chessington, father wildborn Kumba, mother Asili. Asili`s patens are the Jersey-born Kumba and Kaja - captive born in Howletts by Kisoro and JuJu (both wildborn). So Mjukuu is very valueable from the genetics because of her father Kumba, while her mother`s line is well-represented. She should be well-socialized and is surely a great addition for the group!
 
Yassa said:
Mjukuu, female, born 1999 in Chessington, father wildborn Kumba, mother Asili. Asili`s patens are the Jersey-born Kumba and Kaja - captive born in Howletts by Kisoro and JuJu (both wildborn). So Mjukuu is very valueable from the genetics because of her father Kumba, while her mother`s line is well-represented. She should be well-socialized and is surely a great addition for the group!
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Thanks Yassa!

So hopefully, if Bongo (Bobby) and Mjukuu do breed, then ZSL could have a very valuable little baby on their hands ;)

(of course, that is if Bongo is up to the task of breeding...)
 
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