Sumatran rhino............tick!

MARK said:
Jonathan, I think it may of been taken at Combe farm next door to Port Lympne which they also own going by the look of the indoors of the barn, It maybe Torgamba
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That's definately Torgamba at Port Lympne. From the large size of his horns I would say it is in his latter years at the park, so taken indoors in the rhino house(?). If you look at the Rhino Resurce centre sumatran rhino photos, there are some of him taken in the Combe Farm accomodation- a stableyard- shortly after he arrived. You can see how much smaller his horns are then.

What I've not been able to find out is how these big horns became tiny again after he went back to Way Kambas !- were they sawn off to prevent damage in transit, or to prevent him being an irresistable target for poachers, or was it natural wear and erosion in a natural environment(I find the third option hard to believe). Nowadays he has only small bumps like the other rhinos there...
 
I got to see Emi, Ipuh, and Suci at the Cincinnati Zoo last January. Curator took me behind the scenes, got to go in the pen with Emi - she is such a sweet girl. Prior to that I saw Emi and Ipuh in spring 2001, while Emi was pregnant with Andalas. Cincinnati plans to build a large indoor atrium over the current pens for their expanding collection of Sumatrans.
 
Did they outline any plans for Suci? I'm presuming they want to keep her at Cincinnati as a 2nd breeding female- I feel that is the right place for her to be. There's obviously going to be a 'mate' problem for her though. I heard a suggestion they might try AI with her if they can somehow get semen from an unrelated male( The obvious candidate is Torgamba but he sounds rather suspect in that department now.) The other alrenative is to bring in a new male to eventually replace Ipuh- who must be pretty old by now.
 
Pertinax said:
Did they outline any plans for Suci? I'm presuming they want to keep her at Cincinnati as a 2nd breeding female- I feel that is the right place for her to be. There's obviously going to be a 'mate' problem for her though. I heard a suggestion they might try AI with her if they can somehow get semen from an unrelated male( The obvious candidate is Torgamba but he sounds rather suspect in that department now.) The other alrenative is to bring in a new male to eventually replace Ipuh- who must be pretty old by now.
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Would indeed be very interested in the current plans for the Sumatran rhino breeding offshoot SSP-wise. Will Cincinnati retain Suci (I think they will)? What is the current relationship with Way Kambas .. I recently - rather worryingly heard - that Cincinnati had somehow lost interest in the whole affair?
What prospects for an AI attempt on Suci with semen from Torgamba (if nature does not call, why not help it a little)? :D
 
america vs way kambas?...

my position is this - i have no problem with cincinnati maintaining rhino, so long as they make a creating a sustainable breeding program an absolute priority, their number one priority in fact. the zoo owns some of possibly the most valuable animals in any zoo in the world. more important that gorillas, elephants and giant pandas. these rhino are precious gems, even more so since not only are they the only animals in a zoo, but the only breeding animals in captivity anywhere in the world. it should be the biggest conservation initiative at the zoo. that means supporting way kambas both financially and with knowledge, permanently and full-time.

it has always been my belief that the future of the sumatran rhino lies at way kambas, not in america. this is because it will be way kambas that will get any additional founder animals and way kambas that has the potential to supply them with the ideal habitat - the natural one. natural foods, forest and climate all equals the best case scenario. it also encourages tourism and getting the indonesians to value the dollars in eco-tourism is the only way to
save the rhinos habitat. which their long-term survival is pinned against.

so cincy can keep their rhino, and maybe, hopefully even get themselves another male so as to always maintain a breeding pair... BUT only so long as the zoo makes duplicating their success at way kambas, and making that facility even better than theirs is just as much the americans priority as it is the indonesians.

thats the only way this breeding effort will ever succeed.
 
The reason for sending Andalas back to Asia was to make a more convincing argument to allow transfers between the two continents - so it shows that Cincinnati is dedicated to maintaining a captive program and not just exhibiting them. Cincinnati plans to keep Suci with the hope that an unrelated male will be sent over stateside, Emi is still relatively young so she can breed that male also. Collectively US zoos support the Sumatran Rhino programs via the International Rhino Foundation and I know that Cincinnati sends staff over there to assist and help out with Malaysia and Indonesia's facilities. But many things have slowed down temporarily since Tom Foose's death in 2006. I know it has been almost 2 years, but Tom was the IRF. So it may still take some time to regain the momentum that Tom had in place.
 
Well I guess time is on their side at present in so much as Suci is not yet mature enough to breed, while Emi is currently rearing Harapan. So hopefully things will get back on track in time for Suci to be able to make a contribution as soon as she is ready too. That means either a new male imported to Cincinnati, AI procedure, or initially matings by her own father (if he is still able...)
 
torgamba (sp?) is the "other" male at way kambas right?

cincinnati should be breeding suci to him, not her father. if between the two locations they can just make the most of all the genetics available and breed all the animals, i have little doubt that further down the line more rescued animals will become available.

this may sound controversial, but i also strongly believe they should be creating a "genetic bank" of clonable material from all the sumatran rhino still alive in captivity. that includes the animal in borneo, and it would have included rapunzel at bronx had i had my way.

because in 50 years time, when the sumatran rhino is down to an inbred population of 3 in captivity and none left in the wild, when finally global warming and other environmental catastrophes have us desperately restoring forests to our planet in a bid to turn the tide. and when cloning technology is developed to the point where its a reliable safe alternative - we will be *&%$ing kicking ourselves for being so short-sighted as to have not preserved ourselves some genetic diversity.
 
The do have a genetic bank of material from sumatran rhinos dead (including rapunzel) and alive at the Cincinnati Zoo. Terri Roth has things covered in that department.

And knowing the conservation community there will probably be some more "rescue" Sumatran rhinos in the future. Especially if breeding becomes successful in Asia.
 
okapikpr said:
The do have a genetic bank of material from sumatran rhinos dead (including rapunzel) and alive at the Cincinnati Zoo. Terri Roth has things covered in that department.
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phew! that is something i have never heard a thing about but is certainly a smart backup in my opinion. do you know about how many rhino's material is stored?


okapikpr;44290And knowing the conservation community there will probably be some more "rescue" Sumatran rhinos in the future. Especially if breeding becomes successful in Asia.[/QUOTE said:
hmmm..... yeah i know. when i was at the KK zoo recently, which is run by the wildlife department of sabah, they had no problems finding a "rescue" animal whenever they needed one.
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patrick said:
torgamba (sp?) is the "other" male at way kambas right?

cincinnati should be breeding suci to him, not her father. if between the two locations they can just make the most of all the genetics available and breed all the animals, i have little doubt that further down the line more rescued animals will become available.
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Except Torgamba has been mating the females at way Kambas without issue, and has very poor quality semen. (There is a link to the centre's report which mentions this somewhere on the forum)
 
but other than that is he healthy? i suppose IVF is one way to combat poor semen quality though untested, thus potentially dangerous and not something you wanna try with such rare animals however.

i guess you just gotta wait and hope one of them tadpoles eventually makes it.
 
Pygathrix said:
Except Torgamba has been mating the females at way Kambas without issue, and has very poor quality semen. (There is a link to the centre's report which mentions this somewhere on the forum)
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Yes, if you read the Curator report there's a whole table of regular matings between Torgamba & Ratu(or was it Rosa) almost throughout 2007, yet no pregnancy and several comments about 'no semen found' after some of the matings. Presumably that means he didn't ejaculate on those occassions, rather than the sample was poor, but I have read somewhere else that his semen is very low quality too..
Also prior to that he was in poor health but seems to have picked up rather now.

Do we know if the Cincinnati 'sumatran rhino bank' contains semen taken from the males which died in the USA?

I wouldn't advocate breeding Suci with her father either. However I can see one possible scenario where she is ready for mating and Ipuh is still the only male available. Its known that Sumatran rhino are induced ovulators, and that mating induces it. So even with available AI technique ready to hand, how else could they prepare her for it?
 
A lot of US captive populations are based on inbreeding: Okapi, Mountain Tapir, Takin, Indian Rhinoceros, many antelope species, etc. I know there is a higher mortality rate, but Suci cant stay open forever waiting for that unrealted rhino in hairy armour.
 
okapikpr said:
Suci cant stay open forever waiting for that unrealted rhino in hairy armour.
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I agree absolutely. Also if the only solution available was being mated with Ipuh it would only be a first generation inbreeding - hardly excessive. I imagine it must happen a lot among wild animals anyway. Whose to say female Sumatran rhinos aren't sometimes mated by their own fathers(or brothers) in the wild?-its a purely random affair whether related partners mate together.

I'm thinking Cincinnati will want to get Suci pregnant as soon as possible too- knowing what happens with females that remain unbred for any length of time...
 
okapikpr said:
but Suci cant stay open forever waiting for that unrealted rhino in hairy armour.
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so why not send her to indonesia, where the only unrelated male is?

i would think it a better scenario to at least try for the best option before you go and start inbreeding the rhino straight away. after all, we can't found a captive population on two animals....
 
could you explain more in depth please okapipr,

because if you are answering within the context that i am speaking - your saying that entire populations of captive species have been descended by a single pair acquired by the san diego zoo.

i know of a few species who's captive populations are descended from a pair, (such as the mountain tapir) and they are all pretty much desperately reliant on fresh genetics to ensure their continued survival...

is that a smart way to go with the sumatran rhino?
 
sumatran rhino

I have seen a sumatran rhino. Rapunzel at the Bronx zoo was a beautiful specimen before she tragically passed away. More zoos in the U.S. need to replicate the cincinnati exhibit and its housing standards and introduce more rhinos into the captive population
 
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