Sumatran rhino............tick!

LIECOBOY said:
I though from a conservation standpoint want as many weapons at our disposal to aid in the preservation of this species. Yes other captive breeding programs have failed, but the string of births at cincinnati, have shown they have "ironed out" the problems. This needs to be explored as a viable option. I am not saying the rhinos should be in every zoo collection, but breeding programs in well funded zoos i.e. Bronx, Cincinnati, Omaha, LA, with multiple enclosures in the same facility for the species would be a major assist.
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I think the time for distributing specimens of Sumatran rhino randomly to any more zoos outside Asia is now past. Its been done once and didn't work. Even though much more is known about them now, there are still obstacles to successful breeding. Yes, Cincinnati has certainly ironed out most, if not all the problems, at least with the one breeding female/pair. Hopefully they'll be able to somehow repeat this success with her daughter(Suci) too if she is allowed to stay where she is.

At present there are four potential breeding females in captivity- two at Cincinnati, two at Way Kambas(plus the third much older one) I think only when all four of these are breeding successfully should any thought be given to possibly removing any more animals from the wild, with one exception- one more male will be needed if Cincinnati is to continue breeding in the longer term.
 
exactly grant!

as dangerous as it can be, maybe its time to start exploring AI and IVF? it could mean harvesting seamen from wild rhino to fertilise captive females..
 
patrick said:
exactly grant!

as dangerous as it can be, maybe its time to start exploring AI and IVF? it could mean harvesting seamen from wild rhino to fertilise captive females..
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I'm pretty sure that's what they have in mind for the younger female at Cincinnati. They tried it at the Sungai Dusun centre in the past but it didn't succeed. It seems like they may have already collected semen from the other USA males that died, or have access to some another way. The main problem I foresee is how to overcome the 'induced ovulation' factor. Perhaps at Cincinnati in the current situation they would have to use Ipuh (if he was still capable) as a 'teaser'(as with racehorse stallions) Let him mount her but not actually mate and then AI immediately after?...;):confused:
 
ohhhhhh! now if what you say is true, then that paints a very different scenario. in that case, i would suggest exactly what you have said. keep her and attempt AI.

however, the ideal would still be to create a genuinely new bloodline by AI'ing one of the indonesian females with a new bloodline.
 
patrick said:
ohhhhhh! now if what you say is true, then that paints a very different scenario. in that case, i would suggest exactly what you have said. keep her and attempt AI.

however, the ideal would still be to create a genuinely new bloodline by AI'ing one of the indonesian females with a new bloodline.
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I could have pushed the repeat button on either of you (patrick or Pertinax) lol :D

The preferred options are:
a) Establish Way Kambas as the prime in situ research and conservation breeding center for Sumatran rhino and have the WAZA zoo community fund the entire operation. Allow for integration of some Sumatran rhinos from crisis areas with low population numbers and a high likelihood of extinction (area simply to large for individuals to find each other to breed) or those who have strayed from National Parks and by their behaviour would no longer count as possible candidates for rerelease (as was the case with both females Ratu and Rosa). This would also allow for the integration of a new male rhino in the sanctuary to increase the breeding options to 3.
b) Establish Cincinnati Zoo as the ex situ scientific research base for Sumatran rhino reproductive biology, including hormonal stimulation of ovulation and carrying pregnancies to term, preparing for AI (Cincinnati Zoo should be involved with AI at Way Kambas) and genetic analysis of the population.
c) Establish another holding facility in the US for surplus rhinos (before transfer back to Way Kambas). This preferably would be Los Angeles Zoo who managed Andalas prior to his relocation to Way Kambas and were the legal holder of Ipuh (prior to his transfer on permanent breeding loan to Cincinnati).

The above also entails a free transfer of information, scientific advice, funding and transfer of unrelated individuals between US and Way Kambas. I am convinced we can not simply rely on AI alone with the complex ovulation system in female Sumatran rhino during breeding attempts and matings.
 
jelle said:
Allow for integration of some Sumatran rhinos from crisis areas with low population numbers and a high likelihood of extinction (area simply to large for individuals to find each other to breed) or those who have strayed from National Parks and by their behaviour would no longer count as possible candidates for rerelease (as was the case with both females Ratu and Rosa). This would also allow for the integration of a new male rhino in the sanctuary to increase the breeding options to 3.

I am convinced we can not simply rely on AI alone with the complex ovulation system in female Sumatran rhino during breeding attempts and matings.
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1. The trouble with this scenario is there is no guarantee any more rhinos will find their way into the captive groups(s). Rosa and Ratu became 'candidates' quite close together but before them no other rhino had been found under similar circumstances for a long while, and(presumably) there hasn't been another example since.
Another one could crop up next week... or not for several years. So there's no guarantee another new male will be found by this means. I'm not advocating deliberate capture either, just pointing out the downside of the waiting game for potential captives to appear.

2. Agreed- that's why I think a new bull for Cincinatti is going to be essential- either in conjunction with AI - or seperate from it.
 
oh i guess overall we all agree. :)

i got no problems with cincy keeping some rhino, or LA continuing to be "transit" holder - i just aqdamantly don't want to see another attempt at a "zoo population" being built. its all too late for that and its not a priority.
 
patrick said:
oh i guess overall we all agree. :)

i got no problems with cincy keeping some rhino, or LA continuing to be "transit" holder - i just aqdamantly don't want to see another attempt at a "zoo population" being built. its all too late for that and its not a priority.
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Another zoo population? Nay, that is not what I am suggesting here. It is Way Kambas supported financially and scientifically by Cincinnati and Los Angeles, with some animal transfers when possible between these 3. :cool:
 
I'm sure there will never be another 'mass' capture and transport of these animals to zoos abroad. I guess I'm really hoping though that one suitable-aged male will be soon be found in a situation where there is good reason to remove him from the wild- and then export him to Cincinnati. Just the one...;)
 
Los Angeles is not necessarily a transfer facility. They own Emi and I believe Andalas - I dont know anything about the breeding loan so Im not sure - that is why Andalas went to Los Angeles and not any of the other Sumatran Rhino Trust zoos. But if this is so, Cincinnati (who owns Ipuh) owns Suci and Los Angeles owns Harry (assuming the traditional loan agreement of I get the first calf and you get the second and so on and so forth).
 
I made trips to Cincinnati in 2004 and again in 2007, specifically to sketch/photograph the Sumatran rhino calves-- and enjoyed watching first Suci and then Harry on the first few days after their public debuts (when they were still quite small). A wonderful experience on both trips! I wish that I had made a point to see Andalas in 2001.

I found it interesting to observe that children spent so much time glued to the video screen provided at the rhino exhibit "kiosk"--the screen allowed viewing of the rhinos once they went back indoors (Emi and calves were only out from 10am-2pm). During that four hour period, live Sumatran rhinos were right there for all to see and marvel at--Suci/Harry scampering playfully about, etc.--and yet time and again I observed children with their backs to the exhibit, more fascinated by a video monitor depicting nothing, than with living, breathing rhinos...

In addition to the Sumatran rhinos, Cincinnati has so many animal highlights: Steller's sea eagles, blue-throated macaws, giant eland, Indochinese tigers, Mexican wolves, Pallas' cats, bonobos, okapi, Congo peacock, Mueller's gibbons-- the list goes on and on.
 
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okapikpr said:
But if this is so, Cincinnati (who owns Ipuh) owns Suci and Los Angeles owns Harry (assuming the traditional loan agreement of I get the first calf and you get the second and so on and so forth).
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Perhaps after weaning, Harry will go to Los Angeles like Andalas before him. I guess maybe Los Angeles would like to keep him though, rather than see him go back to Sumatra like Andalas. If a female partner was provided for him, possibly L.A. could then become a 2nd USA centre for breeding... this is all in the future of course...
 
kifaru said:
I found it interesting to observe that children spent so much time glued to the video screen provided at the rhino exhibit "kiosk"--the screen allowed viewing of the rhinos once they went back indoors (Emi and calves were only out from 10am-2pm). During that four hour period, live Sumatran rhinos were right there for all to see and marvel at--Suci/Harry scampering playfully about, etc.--and yet time and again I observed children with their backs to the exhibit, more fascinated by a video monitor depicting nothing, than with living, breathing rhinos...
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the power of the TV/video/computer monitor...:rolleyes: Crazy...

How are the rhinos kept nowadays? Presumably Emi and Harapan are the only two together. How is Suci kept-on her own?
 
Pertinax said:
How are the rhinos kept nowadays? Presumably Emi and Harapan are the only two together. How is Suci kept-on her own?
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When I was there in May 2007, Emi and Harry were out from 10am-2pm. Suci was rotated out at 2pm after mother and calf had returned indoors. After watching Harry's comic antics, I was thinking that Suci--being a bit older now--would be less active. Wrong! She was still running and kicking up her heels, just as she had when I first saw her in 2004.

It is an astonishing opportunity and a tremendous gift to see these living Sumatrans, especially the mother with calves.
 
Cincinnati has three indoor holding rooms and two or three? outdoor pens allowing shifting between animals. They also are careful not to have the rhinos outside during the sunniest parts of the days (even though the pens are covered by large overhangs - Emi and Ipuh are both showing signs of eye disease due to the stress caused by too much light.
 
okapikpr said:
Cincinnati has three indoor holding rooms and two or three? outdoor pens allowing shifting between animals. They also are careful not to have the rhinos outside during the sunniest parts of the days (even though the pens are covered by large overhangs - Emi and Ipuh are both showing signs of eye disease due to the stress caused by too much light.
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Ipuh has an outdoor enclosure with mud wallow and Emi/Harry/Suci rotate within a second larger outdoor area.

On my last visit in May 2007, mother and calf were in fact out from 10am-2pm when the sun was directly overhead and very bright (though indirectly thanks to the canopy). The sunshade canopy erected to protect the rhinos from the sun is an extraordinary looking structure.

Suci is out (rain or shine when the weather is favorable) in the afternoons after Emi/Harry return indoors. I visited on a fairly cold rainy day in early October 2006 and Suci was outside, running in the mud. She has a tremendous amount of energy.

I recall Ipuh making a great deal of noise--whining and snorting---wanting to return to his indoor area. I can't recall the exact timing of his going indoors.
 
Okapikpr & Kifaru.

Thanks for sharing your experiences of the Sumatran rhinos at Cincinnati with us. This is a fascinating insight into their day to day management.

It seems that ideally they need an extra outdoor enclosure if they are to continue keeping 'Suci'- as it seems she's confined indoors for much of the day under the present regime. Do you know what the plans are for extending or remodelling the Sumatran Rhino area?

Regarding the eye problems. Possibly the only captive rhino who hasn't suffered from eye/light problems is Torgamba when he lived at Port Lympne in UK- which is notorious for a lot of dull/cloudy weather. I don't know if the Way Kambas rhinos are protected from sunlight or whether the main large enclosure is still largely forested(from photos I believe it is). I know that all the rhinos at Sungai Dusun(where they all died) suffered from what were referred to as 'cloudy eyes.'

Lastly, apart from eye problems, is Ipuh still in good health or is he beginning to show any noticeable signs of his age? Any more news on these marvellous animals at Cincinnati would be welcomed by all us Sumatran rhino fans...
 
Ipuh is still in good health...he's just getting older. As for expansion, if anyone is familar to Cincinnati's layout the whole Wildlife Canyon area is slated to become a indoor Sumatran Rhino atrium. The rhinos only use about 25% of the canyon area, the rest is occupied by RR Hogs, Camels, Takin, Duiker, and Mhorr's Gazelle. So the atrium will take over these pens as well. Im not sure if Cincinnati plans to have other species in the atrium, I assume they will. This will give us something to dream about....
 
Hasn`t Suci been moved to L.A. some time ago? I believe only Emi, Ipuh and Harapan live in Cinci at the moment (though I am hoping they will bring Suci back as soon as she shows signs of reaching sexual maturity - a calf produced with her father is much better then no calf at all!)
 
cloudy eyes......... man that annoys me.

assuming this disease is attributed directly with sunlight - let me ask a hypothetical question....

two sumatran rhino are tethered to individual posts in a sunny paddock. one is given shadecloth overhead the other is not.

after a year, which one has gone blind? the one in shade or the one without?


.....the answer is both.

if this is about light affecting the eye, it doesn't matter if the animal itself is in shade or not, its about the brightness of the light around it, the glare off the objects its looking at. thus in this hypothetical experiment, both rhino are staring out all day at a sunny paddock so the shadecloth over one is going to be doing a negligible amount of help top alleviate the problem.

it's just bloody logic. yet most zoos seem to have not worked this out.
 
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