Wildlife Heritage Foundation News from WHF
- Thread starter Nisha
- Start date
Jordan-Jaguar97
Well-Known Member
The press release by WHF was that it was a long term illness and he died naturally.
Jordan-Jaguar97
Well-Known Member
Also on a happier note, Yazhi a female puma has arrived from Paradise wildlife park.
Jordan-Jaguar97
Well-Known Member
Tamair one of the hybrid tigers has returned from Dudley zoo, hopefully this means the arrival of their new Sumatran tigers!
Jordan-Jaguar97
Well-Known Member
Some news from WHF regarding the arrival of two African White Lionessess. The statement below was released by WHF:
WHF is currently in the process of setting up a very exciting project to help widen the global gene pool of white lions, native to the Timbervati region of South Africa. The project involves bringing two white lionesses to WHF from South Africa to form a pride with our resident male white lion, Themba (pictured).
WHF has successfully relocated lions to Africa in the past as part of our work with different global conservation organisations. Our white lion pride will play the same role in supporting our global work as the rest of the cats based at our centre in Kent.
In order to bring the lionesses to WHF we are urgently seeking the funds needed to pay for transportation and vets bills (critical to ensure the lionesses remain in good health during the trip).
We need to raise in excess of £3,000 before the relocation can take place. If you are able to help this critical project by making a donation to help and to play your part in securing a future for the white lion, please contact Simon Jones on 01233 771914 or e-mail to corporate@whf.org.uk
Thank you in advance for your continued help and support
WHF is currently in the process of setting up a very exciting project to help widen the global gene pool of white lions, native to the Timbervati region of South Africa. The project involves bringing two white lionesses to WHF from South Africa to form a pride with our resident male white lion, Themba (pictured).
WHF has successfully relocated lions to Africa in the past as part of our work with different global conservation organisations. Our white lion pride will play the same role in supporting our global work as the rest of the cats based at our centre in Kent.
In order to bring the lionesses to WHF we are urgently seeking the funds needed to pay for transportation and vets bills (critical to ensure the lionesses remain in good health during the trip).
We need to raise in excess of £3,000 before the relocation can take place. If you are able to help this critical project by making a donation to help and to play your part in securing a future for the white lion, please contact Simon Jones on 01233 771914 or e-mail to corporate@whf.org.uk
Thank you in advance for your continued help and support
Jordan-Jaguar97
Well-Known Member
I don't think WHF should actually do this, there setting up another West Midlands!!
If breeding is responsible then not to bad, but there probably related some way or another (Themba's mother, came from South Africa a few years ago).If i'm honest it's just a load of absolute rubbish,
White lions are nothing different than other lions, and trying to "widen the global gene pool" is impossible because they are so close anyway, it's how the gene occurs. It is a complete waste of funds with a pathetic conservation message.
I really don't take anybody seriously that will seriously spend money and effort with white lions (or tigers) when they have the entire species of lion decreasing at the same time too.
The white lion should not have "a future" as far as evolutionary skills go, the white lion is far too obvious and is a pure genetic freak, if it wasn't for the group captured in the 1980's then they would not have occured again, as naturally unless they were part of a pride they would have starved and died, sad but true.
Surely the entire species of African Lion is more important than some very tiny number of lions, with a colour mutation, and most of them have been bred by humans anyway, as far as I know, not many have occured naturally in the wild, they have just been bred by humans and the whole colour thing has now been taken as a seperate identity, in my opinion a waste.
As you can guess i'm really not impressed!
White lions are nothing different than other lions, and trying to "widen the global gene pool" is impossible because they are so close anyway, it's how the gene occurs. It is a complete waste of funds with a pathetic conservation message.
I really don't take anybody seriously that will seriously spend money and effort with white lions (or tigers) when they have the entire species of lion decreasing at the same time too.
The white lion should not have "a future" as far as evolutionary skills go, the white lion is far too obvious and is a pure genetic freak, if it wasn't for the group captured in the 1980's then they would not have occured again, as naturally unless they were part of a pride they would have starved and died, sad but true.
Surely the entire species of African Lion is more important than some very tiny number of lions, with a colour mutation, and most of them have been bred by humans anyway, as far as I know, not many have occured naturally in the wild, they have just been bred by humans and the whole colour thing has now been taken as a seperate identity, in my opinion a waste.
As you can guess i'm really not impressed!
Jordan-Jaguar97
Well-Known Member
Yes, lets just say Riziki knows a lot on cats- especially lions.
karoocheetah
Well-Known Member
If you know so much about Big Cats how come you are happy to ignore and write off a long term piece of research that is being carried out into this very subject?
I think to write this off as a “load of absolute rubbish” denies the very real genetic research that is currently ongoing to actually prove that the Timbavati White Lions are indeed a separate sub species, work that has made real progress over the last 5 years. The issue is emotive and occasionally subjective but there are definite scientific precedents existing that would argue that the Timbavati White Lions are indeed a separate sub species.
To clarify my argument let me say that I agree with you that up to now a genetic marker for the White Lions has not be established and there are research programmes currently underway looking into identifying the genetic code of White Lions with laboratories in the UK & the US, if a marker is found then White Lions can indeed be classified as genetically distinct and that would then provides a strong argument to have the White Lions listed on CITES, the Schedule of Threatened and Protected Animals of National Importance and IUCN Red Data List. All very important protection tools considering trophy hunting is rife in the Timbavati area.
This research started about five years ago and as such is still in its early stages but there is a fair amount of evidence and precedents set by groups working with other species to indicate that White Lions should be classified as a subspecies.
For example:
Sabi Sands region Lions have been recognized as one of four uniquely defined lion groups in Africa, they reside in the Greater Kruger National Park, Timbavati generally speaking has a similar geomorphology (it’s vegetation, geology, fauna and flora are similar) thus there is an argument that the Sabi Sands Lions could most probably fall in the same lion group as the White Lion could therefore also receive a unique protective status. Genetic Markers again will be important.
Another example is the global precedent set by a scientific team working in British Columbia, Canada with the so-called "Spirit Bear" (i.e. the Kermode Bear). A Similar background story to the White Lion, the Spirit Bear is a unique genetic variant of the Black Bear (Ursus americanus) and occurs in only one place in the world, the temperate rainforests of British Columbia. Also similar to the White Lion, the white coat of the Spirit Bear is believed to be the result of a double recessive allele. The Spirit Bear has been classified as a 'sub-species' (Ursus americanus kermodei). Since the mode of genetic inheritance is similar to that of the White Lions, indications are that the White Lions will also be classified as a 'sub-species' of (Panthera leo).
Looking at the ‘extinct in the wild’ argument – White Lions were last seen in the Timbavati region in early 2006 when 2 white lion cubs were born in a litter containing the more normal tawny cubs, later in the same year a further 2 cubs were born in a different location in Timbavati, none of these or their siblings survived, bear in mind that the survival rate for wild lion cubs to adulthood is about 20% and hunting in the region artificially reducing that the survival rate is even more depressed especially as one of the dominant males that produced the white cubs was also hunted.
For white cubs both parents need to be carrying the gene to ensure the possibility that some offspring will be white. The principles of gene inheritance state that if both parents are tawny and carrying the white gene then there is a 25% chance of having white cubs. One white parent and one tawny parent gives a 50% chance and if both parents are white then it’s 100% in theory!
Some points to consider when deciding if you agree or not with what the WHF are trying to support
• White Lions are not albinos but a genetic rarity (or phenotype) unique to one endemic region on the globe, the Timbavati region.
• The Genetic Marker has not yet been identified.
• The White Lions are currently classified under the general species classification Panthera leo, although this would be likely to change should genetic research currently underway reveal important reasons for sub-speciation of this rare phenotype.
• The unique white lion gene is carried by certain of the tawny coloured lions in the region and white cubs occurred in numerous prides in the region.
• Since their discovery by the West, white lions and those lions carrying the unique gene have been hunted, and forcibly removed from their natural endemic habitat.
• The last white lion was seen in the wild in 1994, after which time they were technically extinct in the wild.
• The idea that white lions are genetically inferior to ordinary tawny lions has not been scientifically tested.
• The idea that White Lions cannot survive in the wild due to perceived lack of camouflage has not been scientifically tested.
• Currently, there is no law nationally or internationally that protects the White Lions from being wiped off the face of the earth.
I don't know if the research is misguided but I do believe that the case for White Lions is no where near as cut and dried as you claim it to be and warrants a deeper look into both the arguments and the data that results.
I think to write this off as a “load of absolute rubbish” denies the very real genetic research that is currently ongoing to actually prove that the Timbavati White Lions are indeed a separate sub species, work that has made real progress over the last 5 years. The issue is emotive and occasionally subjective but there are definite scientific precedents existing that would argue that the Timbavati White Lions are indeed a separate sub species.
To clarify my argument let me say that I agree with you that up to now a genetic marker for the White Lions has not be established and there are research programmes currently underway looking into identifying the genetic code of White Lions with laboratories in the UK & the US, if a marker is found then White Lions can indeed be classified as genetically distinct and that would then provides a strong argument to have the White Lions listed on CITES, the Schedule of Threatened and Protected Animals of National Importance and IUCN Red Data List. All very important protection tools considering trophy hunting is rife in the Timbavati area.
This research started about five years ago and as such is still in its early stages but there is a fair amount of evidence and precedents set by groups working with other species to indicate that White Lions should be classified as a subspecies.
For example:
Sabi Sands region Lions have been recognized as one of four uniquely defined lion groups in Africa, they reside in the Greater Kruger National Park, Timbavati generally speaking has a similar geomorphology (it’s vegetation, geology, fauna and flora are similar) thus there is an argument that the Sabi Sands Lions could most probably fall in the same lion group as the White Lion could therefore also receive a unique protective status. Genetic Markers again will be important.
Another example is the global precedent set by a scientific team working in British Columbia, Canada with the so-called "Spirit Bear" (i.e. the Kermode Bear). A Similar background story to the White Lion, the Spirit Bear is a unique genetic variant of the Black Bear (Ursus americanus) and occurs in only one place in the world, the temperate rainforests of British Columbia. Also similar to the White Lion, the white coat of the Spirit Bear is believed to be the result of a double recessive allele. The Spirit Bear has been classified as a 'sub-species' (Ursus americanus kermodei). Since the mode of genetic inheritance is similar to that of the White Lions, indications are that the White Lions will also be classified as a 'sub-species' of (Panthera leo).
Looking at the ‘extinct in the wild’ argument – White Lions were last seen in the Timbavati region in early 2006 when 2 white lion cubs were born in a litter containing the more normal tawny cubs, later in the same year a further 2 cubs were born in a different location in Timbavati, none of these or their siblings survived, bear in mind that the survival rate for wild lion cubs to adulthood is about 20% and hunting in the region artificially reducing that the survival rate is even more depressed especially as one of the dominant males that produced the white cubs was also hunted.
For white cubs both parents need to be carrying the gene to ensure the possibility that some offspring will be white. The principles of gene inheritance state that if both parents are tawny and carrying the white gene then there is a 25% chance of having white cubs. One white parent and one tawny parent gives a 50% chance and if both parents are white then it’s 100% in theory!
Some points to consider when deciding if you agree or not with what the WHF are trying to support
• White Lions are not albinos but a genetic rarity (or phenotype) unique to one endemic region on the globe, the Timbavati region.
• The Genetic Marker has not yet been identified.
• The White Lions are currently classified under the general species classification Panthera leo, although this would be likely to change should genetic research currently underway reveal important reasons for sub-speciation of this rare phenotype.
• The unique white lion gene is carried by certain of the tawny coloured lions in the region and white cubs occurred in numerous prides in the region.
• Since their discovery by the West, white lions and those lions carrying the unique gene have been hunted, and forcibly removed from their natural endemic habitat.
• The last white lion was seen in the wild in 1994, after which time they were technically extinct in the wild.
• The idea that white lions are genetically inferior to ordinary tawny lions has not been scientifically tested.
• The idea that White Lions cannot survive in the wild due to perceived lack of camouflage has not been scientifically tested.
• Currently, there is no law nationally or internationally that protects the White Lions from being wiped off the face of the earth.
I don't know if the research is misguided but I do believe that the case for White Lions is no where near as cut and dried as you claim it to be and warrants a deeper look into both the arguments and the data that results.
I agree that it regards a deeper look, but it does upset me when so many collections seem to follow into this West Mids, Paradise, Isle of Wight Zoo etc. However I was talking in general about the statement that Paradise released. To widen the gene pool for "White lions" no meniton of any other possible subspecies at all. As far as the subspecies arguement goes, I have to say I am on the side of the African Lion being as a whole, and I feel that the differences seen are just natural, the different groups of lions in these different areas, become different themselves. But I don't see it as a distinct as subspecies it is just natural. The reason why I think this?
If you were to put a lion born in captivity, for example any lion in the UK, all of which have been bred in captivity for a line that goes back atleast 50 years, it would not matter where you release them to in Africa as they would survive, and over generations they would simply adapt back into the features that would make them take best use of the area that they live in.
I just feel that more attention should be payed to the African Lion as a whole, rather than picking out the little minor attractions within it, if we keep doing that, then we're just going to let the entire species just go through our fingers. We need to keep numbers up, make populations stable before we worry about these little things.
This is just my opinion, and that was your opinion, and we are free to them.
------
I also think that African lion subspecies (if they do occur) are man made, through isolating populations inbetween human settlements, for example the lions in the Ngororo Crater, have been isolated by not only the geology of the area but that it is completely covered by farmland making it impossible for lions to travel in and out of the area, meaning that the lions are breeding together, inbreeding, whether or not this has an effect is being investigated (something I think is more worth while). If you took out this human barrier lions would be free to move throughout the countries as they do through sex-based dispersal, as the nomad males follow migrating herds.
If you were to put a lion born in captivity, for example any lion in the UK, all of which have been bred in captivity for a line that goes back atleast 50 years, it would not matter where you release them to in Africa as they would survive, and over generations they would simply adapt back into the features that would make them take best use of the area that they live in.
I just feel that more attention should be payed to the African Lion as a whole, rather than picking out the little minor attractions within it, if we keep doing that, then we're just going to let the entire species just go through our fingers. We need to keep numbers up, make populations stable before we worry about these little things.
This is just my opinion, and that was your opinion, and we are free to them.
------
I also think that African lion subspecies (if they do occur) are man made, through isolating populations inbetween human settlements, for example the lions in the Ngororo Crater, have been isolated by not only the geology of the area but that it is completely covered by farmland making it impossible for lions to travel in and out of the area, meaning that the lions are breeding together, inbreeding, whether or not this has an effect is being investigated (something I think is more worth while). If you took out this human barrier lions would be free to move throughout the countries as they do through sex-based dispersal, as the nomad males follow migrating herds.
Last edited:
karoocheetah
Well-Known Member
ah cool - we are both sort of coming at this argument but from different angles I think.
I agree that the whole African Lion research should be highlighted more - I think upon delving deeper that the genetics researchers will find more interesting stuff out. Hopefully when the 'whites' genetic fingerprint is mapped it'll open up new areas for research regardless of the results.
Yes the comments about 'widening the gene pool' are ill advised in truth and look a bit crass. I spoke to the WHF staff when I was down there in January about this and they mentioned the White Lion stuff but they didn't use the whole gene pool arguement it was more about furthering research in a safer environment. Themba is a cracking looking lion and any offspring from him would be great but they have always wanted to try to preserve the white lion line and since the breeding guidelines limit the number of times you can get offspring from an animal I think they feel that 'wasting' that on a standard tawny lion would be just that - a waste - hence holding out for fresh 'white' stock from South Africa.
Also agree that previous captive to wild release programmes have gone horribly wrong - in fact a previous attempt at releasing white lions in the area was a disaster with all being killed either by resident prides or by hunting.
We as a community are a lot more savvy about soft and hard release programmes now.
I look forward to the data from the White Lion Research Group with much interest as the full genetic fingerprint should be available very soon now - any breeding at the WHF will just be a bonus - they are always in need of funds though for everything they do - that message should get through loud and clear.
and in closing it's the differences of opinion that have often furthered my education - long may they continue - these kind of informed and rational discussions are what I joined Zoo Chat for in truth!
I agree that the whole African Lion research should be highlighted more - I think upon delving deeper that the genetics researchers will find more interesting stuff out. Hopefully when the 'whites' genetic fingerprint is mapped it'll open up new areas for research regardless of the results.
Yes the comments about 'widening the gene pool' are ill advised in truth and look a bit crass. I spoke to the WHF staff when I was down there in January about this and they mentioned the White Lion stuff but they didn't use the whole gene pool arguement it was more about furthering research in a safer environment. Themba is a cracking looking lion and any offspring from him would be great but they have always wanted to try to preserve the white lion line and since the breeding guidelines limit the number of times you can get offspring from an animal I think they feel that 'wasting' that on a standard tawny lion would be just that - a waste - hence holding out for fresh 'white' stock from South Africa.
Also agree that previous captive to wild release programmes have gone horribly wrong - in fact a previous attempt at releasing white lions in the area was a disaster with all being killed either by resident prides or by hunting.
We as a community are a lot more savvy about soft and hard release programmes now.
I look forward to the data from the White Lion Research Group with much interest as the full genetic fingerprint should be available very soon now - any breeding at the WHF will just be a bonus - they are always in need of funds though for everything they do - that message should get through loud and clear.
and in closing it's the differences of opinion that have often furthered my education - long may they continue - these kind of informed and rational discussions are what I joined Zoo Chat for in truth!
Last edited:
Exactly! I think it's one of the most important aspects of zookeeping/animal welfare. It is such an opinion based subject, with everyone doing what they can do to what they can believe be the best for their animals that they can.
I just can't help wonder that for all of the White lion programmes there are in the UK, the amount of publicity that they make such as the release Paradise have made about their fundraising, doesn't help one bit in the eyes of people such as ourselves, in the way that they word what they are doing, in terms of comparing them to proper select subspecies of any major difference (that white lions are not due to their ability to interbeed with normal tawny lions, so the gene will always be preserved as a such).
I just can't help wonder that for all of the White lion programmes there are in the UK, the amount of publicity that they make such as the release Paradise have made about their fundraising, doesn't help one bit in the eyes of people such as ourselves, in the way that they word what they are doing, in terms of comparing them to proper select subspecies of any major difference (that white lions are not due to their ability to interbeed with normal tawny lions, so the gene will always be preserved as a such).
Panthera Puss
Well-Known Member
A lot of the pro white lion conservation arguments on this thread come directly from Global White Lion Protection Trust material, and they are not exactly (IMHO) a paragon of unbiased and reliable sources. I hope Karoocheetah won't mind me pointing that out
As a whole WHF does outstanding breeding work with both it's amur leopards and sumatran tigers as well as other contributions it makes to conservation organisations around the globe. However WHF is in danger of undoing that good work in m opinion if it continues to persue it's desire to breed white lions. I for one am not against white lions, however, I am against inbreeding animals for the sake of producing cubs, misleading well meaning members of the public and hypocrisy.
karoocheetah
Well-Known Member
it's not inbreeding if you know the genetic line of the animals - white tigers - yes horribly inbred and artificially created - The White Lions prides mentioned (by GWPT and Others) - and I don't get my info from just one source that wouldn't be rigourous would it now! - produced the white varients naturally in the wild without any interferance from mankind - that was still happening up until they were hunted from the areas concerned - so it is a natural recessive allele and is obviously carried by more Tawny lions than previously thought. Bringing in a white female to mate with a white male from another pride is not inbreeding as they will not be related.
Now I admit that I don't know the heritage of Themba at WHF so I'm happy to find that out but it's unlikely he'll be related to two new females coming in from South Africa - but again if you know better feel free to prove as much.
Now I admit that I don't know the heritage of Themba at WHF so I'm happy to find that out but it's unlikely he'll be related to two new females coming in from South Africa - but again if you know better feel free to prove as much.