ZSL London Zoo ZSL London Zoo News 2012

[Pertinax]

conditions for improved methods to be tried more often, rather than anesthetizing animals.

Thing is, its not going to be great for London to have any more problems, and embarking on AI with a great ape species would be unusual enough to lead interested press and members of the public back to the central problem, which is that the have so far failed to create a successful breeding group of gorillas.

even if ZSL manages to have immense breeding success with a new male (assuming they obtain one), ZSL will remain in the shadow of the nearest large zoo, Chessington, in terms of gorillas, of which it shares all the largest 'ABC' species: Sumatran tigers, Asiatic lions, gorillas, and soon giraffe.

Orang-utans will just look awful unless they are in semi-natural vegetation, even a Chester-style exhibit in a built-up area such as London will be dreadful

I think in this publicity conscious era, they might value the publicity gained from trying to AI a female (presumably Mjuku) over the negative aspects of it, particularly if it didn't involve anaethsesia. (I remember how the London females Zaire & Diana were repeatedly 'knocked out' during the Hepatitis B 'scare' -a very bad and risky scenario.) However to my mind it is complete folly to go down this difficult route with such a low success rate, when there are obvious natural options available.

It is ironical ZSL have so many problems trying to breed Gorillas, while at Chessington half the females are still(afaik) on contraceptives to prevent too many babies- either because of space or EEP recommendation, I am not sure which.

Orangutans are one of the most expensive species to house well- unless you happen to have a well wooded location like Paignton's. Although Sumatran orangutans do make an active display and I think more holders would be welcome, I don't think London is really the place for them.

Bonobos on the other hand could be accomodated with only the same sort of changes to existing buildings(in the Sobell area) as was done for Gorilla Kingdom. (There is also unused space there currently given over to Aviaries and footpaths.)

 

[OrangePerson]

Don't they have areas behind the scenes(under the public walkway) where they can be segregated individually e.g. for feeding, illness etc?

Could be wrong but... they can be segregated into just one of the indoor areas, as Padang was for a while before he went to Prague. The connecting tunnels have sections where they can be confined for close-up access or the section taken out... I think... memory not what it was!

The Borneans do have classic 'night dens' underneath.

 

[Pertinax]

When I say night dens, I mean an area of off-show, small barred 'cubicles' with a couple of platforms in each and lots of hay bedding. Basically night dens = beds

I'd be very surprised if ROTRA was built without some of these, along the same lines as in the older house. They are vital for segregating the animals when ncessary.

 

[Pertinax]

The connecting tunnels have sections where they can be confined for close-up access or the section taken out... I think... memory not what it was!

Okay, a more modern version. I imagine the connecting passageways can be divided up then? (this system used to be called 'crush' cages)

 

[Pt123]

There are still seregation dens under the walkway of RORA, they are below the sections of the public area which stick out into the main indoor areas. They are much larger than the ones in the old house and there are only 3 of them in total.

As far as I am aware though the Orangs are never shut into them, but the option is there if needed.

 

[Pertinax]

As far as I am aware though the Orangs are never shut into them, but the option is there if needed.

I thought they must have something- you can't keep a large Orangutan group without a way of comfortably segregating an individual occassionally if the need arises.

Back to ZSL developments.....

 

[OrangePerson]

I thought they must have something- you can't keep a large Orangutan group without a way of comfortably segregating an individual occassionally if the need arises.

Individuals are easily segregated in the normal quarters, as was Padang, because the indoor sections can be locked off although I guess they would not want to manage a seriously ill animal in that way.

I was questioning the concept of the need for managing them with regular bed 'cubicles' really.

 

[Pertinax]

I was questioning the concept of the need for managing them with regular bed 'cubicles' really.

I don't know how they manage them nowadays but presumably they all stay together under normal conditions 24/7. In the old days with most Apes they'd be shut in after visiting hours into night 'dens' but this segregation also allowed for at least two feeds(morning and evening)where each animal gets its allocated share. Don't know how they would make sure of that nowadays though but they obviously do.

 

[OrangePerson]

They do that in that they separate off the gibbons in one of the indoor sections for a period for feeding and so could do that with any orang(s) that needed it.

 

[Pertinax]

Thanks for the info.

Back to London Zoo Developments....

 

[Cat-Man]

Wow guys, a very interesting debate going on, should I start a new thread?

Hav they decide on any major new development after the tigers yet?

 

[dublinlion]

UTV are showing the tv series about london zoo as a repeat and in last nights episode they were trying to breed from the komodo dragon. When it was suspected that the female had laid eggs, the keepers spent ages trying to locate the nest and digging holes all over the place. They found nothing but surely there must be a better way of locating these nests such as a detector type probe or electronic device or camera.
Also has london managed to get the dragons to successfully breed yet?

 

[stulch]

Tiger Territory

I went to the Tiger SOS Fellows' event on Saturday, very interesting.

It was divided into two equal parts.

The first part was a talk from one of the tiger keepers.

He mainly went through the work ZSL do in Sumatra (conservation and research) and also said about paying half the wages of some locals to protect the areas. Using locals is a better way of doing things as it means that other locals aren't being lectured by outsiders.

Through these efforts the tiger population isn't decreasing and I think he said it is either increasing or there is scope for it increasing.

He also said about how seeing tigers in the flesh at London Zoo when they were young in fact inspired some of the people who are involved (in the conservation and research in Sumatra). So inspiring people is important for the future.

The second part was running through their plans (most of the actual diagrams, pictures and planning plans were what is already available on Westminster's planning site, a link to which I’ve provided previously but here's the link again if anyone's interested 11/04644/FULL | Creation of new Sumatran Tiger enclosure and alterations to two adjoining buildings. | Outer Circle Regents Park London NW1).

They also said:-

They've raised over £3 Million.

They break ground on 20th February and hope to complete it by Christmas, giving the tigers time to settle in before it opens Easter 2013.

The existing tigers are going to Paradise Park.

They are initially having two new tigers but there is space for two females and a male. The two new tigers are coming from Australia and the USA.

Because the enclosure can be separated they can separate them if required and they can also use the separation if they need to separate mother and clubs (from the others).

Tiger Territory is adaptable and can be extended in the future.

They did show some images to demonstrate how things would look, views, materials etc. that weren't on Westminster's website, these were from a European zoo that built a tiger enclosure about six years ago (sorry I’ve forgotten which one but others might know / be able to work it out from this and if someone says it I may be able to confirm!)

Covering the enclosure has almost doubled its price, but they decided to do it for three main reasons, it's an urban zoo, it's close to the outer boarder of the zoo and to stop people getting in to it.

Planning around the Casson i.e. inside and out is what they are working on at the moment.

For the current tiger enclosure quite a number of ideas have been put forward which they are looking through. The next thing there will either be what they choose or something temporary for a year or two before what they have chosen. If they do something temporary first depends on what they choose.

The Anoas have already moved to Into Africa the Pygmy Hippos are expected to follow. The birds, I think they said will move to a new aviary I think being built where the birds of prey are (it's quite ironic I've forgotten this part as it was my question where were the existing animals going!)

It was also mentioned, and I mention it as it's been mentioned in this thread, they do see London and Whipsnade as one collection so try to avoid duplication where they can.

I think those were the main things, if anyone else went and I’ve got something wrong please correct me!

 

[Jordan-Jaguar97]

Thanks for this stulch, interesting that there going to Paradise, they only house hybrids.

 

[Dassie rat]

Thanks Stulch for your interesting report. I went to the original presentation about a year ago, but the report you saw is miuch more detailed.

The first part was a talk from one of the tiger keepers. He mainly went through the work ZSL do in Sumatra (conservation and research) and also said about paying half the wages of some locals to protect the areas. Using locals is a better way of doing things as it means that other locals aren't being lectured by outsiders. !

I agree with this. Several years ago, I had a talk with a member of staff at Jersey Zoo. He said that it is better for local people to get involved with conserving their animals, so that it provides work and money for them, rather than being seen as a way to take away land from local people, who then see no benefit in saving the animals. A few years ago, I saw a programme about a tiger reserve in India. WWF took the land from local people, who had grown their crops there. WWF complained when poachers entered the reserve; why weren't the local people protecting the tigers? The people said they were worse off because of the reserve, so WWF allowed the people to grow crops on the fringes of the reserve if they watched out for tiger poachers. So both sides benefitted. It is good that ZSL is helping local people benefit from saving tigers.

He also said about how seeing tigers in the flesh at London Zoo when they were young in fact inspired some of the people who are involved (in the conservation and research in Sumatra). So inspiring people is important for the future.

I'm afraid this argument could be applied to any other animal in zoos. The fact is that tigers are abundant in zoos, while there are thousands of endangered animals that are represented by few, if any, zoo specimens. There are several tiger charities, but many species of animals are destined to become extinct due to lack of interest.

Covering the enclosure has almost doubled its price, but they decided to do it for three main reasons, it's an urban zoo, it's close to the outer boarder of the zoo and to stop people getting in to it.

I found this paragraph very offputting. There have been a few cases where tigers have been able to escape from enclosures, even though the boundaries were considered to be too high for them. A couple of years, there was concern about whether gorillas, lions and tigers could escape from London Zoo. A year ago, the ZSL campaigned to raise £3 million for a new tiger enclosure. This is the first I've heard that the tiger was planned to have no cover, despite the risks. Now, ZSL is raising an even larger amount in a time of austerity, when people are losing their jobs and homes and public services are being cut. I agree with raising money to protect forests in Sumatra, but why is so much money being spent because a potential visitor may want to save tigers after seeing a live one in a zoo?

It was also mentioned, and I mention it as it's been mentioned in this thread, they do see London and Whipsnade as one collection so try to avoid duplication where they can.

A few years ago, it was suggested that the Sumatran tiger was a distinct species (Panthera sumatrae). While there is still some debate about tiger classification, as far as I know, there is one species at present. Therefore, there is duplication in having tigers at London and Whipsnade. As mentioned in earlier texts, there could be Sumatran tigers at Whipsnade and Whipsnade's Amur tigers could be moved to other zoos.

Thanks again, Stulch

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Given that ZSL/London Zoo is heavily involved in Sumatera with tiger conservation I can see the rationale of the whole plan.

My queries:
1) the anoas not coming back in Wild Indonesia?
2) the Malayan tapirs were part of the whole investment. Am I missing someting here?

I would say both species would make an excellent work of the current Cassons pavillion.

3) the pygmy hippos going back towards the entrance where the Gorilla Kingdom is eventually?

4) what bird species' were we talking of?

 

[stulch]

Covering the enclosure has almost doubled its price, but they decided to do it for three main reasons, it's an urban zoo, it's close to the outer boarder of the zoo and to stop people getting in to it.

I found this paragraph very offputting. There have been a few cases where tigers have been able to escape from enclosures, even though the boundaries were considered to be too high for them. A couple of years, there was concern about whether gorillas, lions and tigers could escape from London Zoo. A year ago, the ZSL campaigned to raise £3 million for a new tiger enclosure. This is the first I've heard that the tiger was planned to have no cover, despite the risks.

I didn't take it from the statement I heard that they were considering not covering the enclosure, for instance, if I was to build a house and then say the roof almost doubled the price it doesn't mean I was considering not having a roof I would just be saying how much the roof cost in proportion to the rest.

But to be honest I think you start with a blank piece of paper and make decisions based on the available / what will be available information.

The architect/designer for instance might have said in his first meeting does it need to be covered? and the instant reply could have been yes.

But the key thing is to have made the right decisions based on the available / what was available information.

But for an architect asking the question it would have been a legitimate question as we do know of some tiger enclosures that aren't covered.

It was also mentioned, and I mention it as it's been mentioned in this thread, they do see London and Whipsnade as one collection so try to avoid duplication where they can.

A few years ago, it was suggested that the Sumatran tiger was a distinct species (Panthera sumatrae). While there is still some debate about tiger classification, as far as I know, there is one species at present. Therefore, there is duplication in having tigers at London and Whipsnade. As mentioned in earlier texts, there could be Sumatran tigers at Whipsnade and Whipsnade's Amur tigers could be moved to other zoos.

I don't have a problem with this as I don't personally see it as duplication, because of the size difference and the darker orange. I think in all the tiger talks I've heard from ZSL they have always explained these differences and what they have where leading them to talk about numbers for each subspecies.

 

[Dassie rat]

Thanks Stulch.

I hope the architects didn't assume that the tigers weren't going to be kept in an uncovered enclosure. The idea of an escaped tiger in London Zoo is frightening. It doesn't surprise me that prices are going up and I doubt if the finbal enclosure will look as if it cost £6 million or whatever. I'd have much preferred fund raising for an exhibit to atract people in amphibians, especially as there is a new Muppet Movie that could have aided promotion.

At present, the tigers are placed in the same species, Panthera tigris, and I can't see how the zoos at Whipsnade and London are aiming to avoid duplication if they have an expensive tiger enclosure at each zoo. I also wonder what they wqill do about giraffes at both zoos. I know that, like tigers, there may be more than one species, bnut this has yet to be confirmed.

 

[stulch]

I hope the architects didn't assume that the tigers weren't going to be kept in an uncovered enclosure.

I just used that made up scenario to try and demonstrate my point.

I also wonder what they wqill do about giraffes at both zoos. I know that, like tigers, there may be more than one species, bnut this has yet to be confirmed.

They have three non-breeding giraffes at London as I think they don't consider it suitable for breeding. I think they are hybrids but I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong. I can't see them not keeping giraffes at London Zoo.

They do breed giraffes at Whipsnade as you probably know.

Incidentally they are currently down to just one tiger at Whipsnade.

 

[zoogiraffe]

They have three non-breeding giraffes at London as I think they don't consider it suitable for breeding. I think they are hybrids but I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong. I can't see them not keeping giraffes at London Zoo.

They do breed giraffes at Whipsnade as you probably know.

London is currently housing 3 hybrid female Giraffes,and I believe they will continue to house a none breeding group of hybrids,as exhibit animals only as a result of them being Hybrids,as the EEP does not want any more Hybrids being born,as they are now very close to having most collections housing either breeding groups of pure Giraffes,or a single sex group which can maintain a mix of pure and Hybrid individuals.But as with every thing there will always be a few exception to this.
Whilst Whipsnade will maintain a breeding group of Reticulated Giraffe.