mstickmanp
Well-Known Member
I didn't know where to post this, but Ratu is 10 months pregnant now.
AFP: Rare Sumatran rhino pregnancy offers hope to species
AFP: Rare Sumatran rhino pregnancy offers hope to species
Los Angeles Zoo & Botanical Gardens Sumatran rhino returning to LA Zoo
- Thread starter DavidBrown
- Start date
@mstickmanp: have you heard any word on whether they are even considering putting the rhino out on exhibit? Is he particularly shy?
It seems strange that they would bring him out here and keep him in the back, unless it would be unduly stressful on him to go out on public exhibit.
It seems strange that they would bring him out here and keep him in the back, unless it would be unduly stressful on him to go out on public exhibit.
mstickmanp
Well-Known Member
I haven't heard anything on the new rhino, but Blackduiker and I have a theory that the Takins might go in the former Japanese Serow exhibit and the Sumatran Rhino back in their former exhibit.
What will LA Zoo vis a vis other rhino species in future? Planning/plans?
Can anyone explain why the deceased Emi at Cincinnati and Ratu at Way Kambas have both suffered repeated miscarriages before treatment with Progesterone? Is it caused by stress, related to a captive environment? As Way Kambas closely approximates the wild in both climate/diet etc, the cause still remains a mystery to me.
I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that early pregnancy loss in Sumatran rhinos is restricted to captive individuals? I'm not too good at reading through scientific stuff, but here is a pdf I've found that may hold some answers if you can understand it better than me
http://www.rhinoresourcecenter.com/pdf_files/127/1272407225.pdf
From what I gather, it is to do with the induced ovulation when they are mated by the males, and since the Sumatran rhino has unpredictable progesterone levels then many pregnancies have come from rhinos not been introduced and mated at the time when ovulation is parallel to an ideal progesterone level?
In the wild, I imagine they would come together naturally at these times, essentially I think in captivity it is a case of matings occurring at the wrong time, if that makes sense.
[P.S. If I'm anywhere NEAR talking sense with all of that then I want a gold star, because I think I started making most of that up as I went along!]
Repeatedly losing pregnancies seems a very inefficient method of reproduction in a wild species. I wouldn't expect it to happen in the wild population but presumably no one knows for sure. That's why I attributed it, rightly or wrongly, to some aspect/effect of captivity.
Afaics, this article doesn't shed too much light on this either- its more about how they managed to overcome it and achieve a successful birth. Your theory does make some sense however, though not sure how correct you are- its very confusing stuff.
Afaics, this article doesn't shed too much light on this either- its more about how they managed to overcome it and achieve a successful birth. Your theory does make some sense however, though not sure how correct you are- its very confusing stuff.
It is confusing, and to be honest I don't have an actual clue. Like I said my theory isn't really based on anything other than the fact it seems plausible, and I can't think of too much that could be different between captivity and wild rhinos in Indonesia. Stress could be one factor, maybe diet as well. Is it possible that there are natural forms of progesterone suppliments that haven't been discovered in the wild, but rhinos use [maybe in food, water supply, mineral stones etc?]
I think it is more likely that one individual rhino has medical problem and passed it to its offsptring.
Basing on all other mammals, breeding in captivity is relared to medical care, feeding or social system. I think current extremely large enclosures or tropical climate are acctually superfluous (although tropical sun is very nice to see). I remember first experiments of breeding Giant Pandas in captivity, when zoologists proposed gigantic enclosures in their native habitat. Now pandas breed in very normal conditions.
Good at least Indonesia sorted basics: hygiene, proper medical care and actually putting breeding-age pair together.
Stress at human presence? AFAIK almost all captive Sumatran Rhinos are very tame.
Basing on all other mammals, breeding in captivity is relared to medical care, feeding or social system. I think current extremely large enclosures or tropical climate are acctually superfluous (although tropical sun is very nice to see). I remember first experiments of breeding Giant Pandas in captivity, when zoologists proposed gigantic enclosures in their native habitat. Now pandas breed in very normal conditions.
Good at least Indonesia sorted basics: hygiene, proper medical care and actually putting breeding-age pair together.
Stress at human presence? AFAIK almost all captive Sumatran Rhinos are very tame.
1. If the two females that this has occurred in are related in any way it would be a remarkable coincidence, since they entered captivity at entirely different times and probably from different locations too.
2. I agree Sumatran rhinos do seem un-stressed by the proximity of people, but possibly there are underlying issues from captive management, which are not readily apparent in their tameness?
IanRRobinson
Well-Known Member
Yet the odd thing about this animal is that it was the first rhino species to breed in captivity, as long ago as 1889! The fact that this was in Calcutta might suggest some need for humidity, and one assumes that suitable browse would have been abundant.
OTH, it doesn't suggest an animal that is intrinsically very difficult. Has anyone ever seen a copy of A Handbook of the Management of Animals in Captivity in Lower Bengal, written by Calcutta's then superintendent, RB Sanyal ? I wonder what he had to say?
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_Brahma_Sanyal"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_Brahma_Sanyal[/ame]
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I would present it as a case where more husbandry and technical reproductive and behavioral knowledge on the species has become available that projects designed for intensive captive-breeding are bound to succeed more than in the past.
I would similarly propose that the only zoo out of range that ever recreated good conditions for Sumatran rhinos was Port Lympne Wild Animal Park. Sadly, they had an unlucky stroke with both female rhinos (elderly and medical) they were presented with.
When the US zoos took over ..., it is just a simple arithmetic game to know that the US C.B. project failed miserably. Too much emphasis was put on ex situ breeding over complimentary in situ captive management and breeding.
A similar case is the US southern black rhino rescue from Zimbabwe. Due to space constraints zoos are unable to breed, hence a proportion of the population is approaching reproductively senescent age and those that are able to breed are not allowed due to SSP space constraints and the focus on whites ...
The Malaysians were later somewhat haphazardly presented as not the way to manage rhinos in captivity, unjustly so.
I would similarly propose that the only zoo out of range that ever recreated good conditions for Sumatran rhinos was Port Lympne Wild Animal Park. Sadly, they had an unlucky stroke with both female rhinos (elderly and medical) they were presented with.
When the US zoos took over ..., it is just a simple arithmetic game to know that the US C.B. project failed miserably. Too much emphasis was put on ex situ breeding over complimentary in situ captive management and breeding.
A similar case is the US southern black rhino rescue from Zimbabwe. Due to space constraints zoos are unable to breed, hence a proportion of the population is approaching reproductively senescent age and those that are able to breed are not allowed due to SSP space constraints and the focus on whites ...
The Malaysians were later somewhat haphazardly presented as not the way to manage rhinos in captivity, unjustly so.
IanRRobinson
Well-Known Member
This is going offtopic, but whereas I have never seen the 1889 rhino paddock in Calcutta where Sumatran rhino bred, I've seen the facilities at Bristol and London where a good many Black rhino were bred in the 1950s, '60s and '70s. Nobody could accuse either of them of erring on the side of excessive area. Whatever issues might have befallen the programme for Diceros bicornis minor in the US, was it really a failure because the enclosures weren't big enough?
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Don’t forget, though, a Sumatran rhinoceros was born on board the ship SS Orchis in Victoria Docks, London, on 7th December 1872.
Sadly this animal did not live long.
The original version of this book was published in 1892; I’ve seen the copy in the ZSL Library.
The original is very scarce, but it is possible to buy a modern reprint on-line; I’m tempted to do so.
I would imagine the 1889 Calcutta rhino was the same situation as the 1872 London rhino - an already pregnant rhino giving birth. Not quite the same as a captive breeding!*
*I don't know the specifics of the Calcutta rhino, whether it was caught pregnant or actually became pregnant at the zoo, but I would assume the former.
*I don't know the specifics of the Calcutta rhino, whether it was caught pregnant or actually became pregnant at the zoo, but I would assume the former.
IanRRobinson
Well-Known Member
Apparently not. The mother in 1889 was onsite when the conception happened.
I had a chat with John Edwards today - name dropping because he is a first rate zoo historian RRC: London Zoo from old photographs 1852-1914- and the rhino enclosure in Calcutta was apparently spacious, with a pool, and was to breed Indian rhino as well in the 1920s, well before anywhere in Europe or North America.
I have a feeling that the unpleasant racial attitudes of late Victorian Britain contributed to the lack of awareness of a man who must have been a fine zoo professional.
I had a chat with John Edwards today - name dropping because he is a first rate zoo historian RRC: London Zoo from old photographs 1852-1914- and the rhino enclosure in Calcutta was apparently spacious, with a pool, and was to breed Indian rhino as well in the 1920s, well before anywhere in Europe or North America.
I have a feeling that the unpleasant racial attitudes of late Victorian Britain contributed to the lack of awareness of a man who must have been a fine zoo professional.
I occassionally bump the various Sumatran Rhino threads in the hope that someone can give out some information about what Cincinnati propose to do about the zoobred female 'Suci'- who must now surely have reached breeding age? And they cannot afford to leave her unbred for obvious reasons.
The Sumatran rhinoceros that gave birth aboard a ship in the London Docks in 1872 was wild-caught about seven months before arriving in London; obviously the animal was pregnant when captured.
However, the Sumatran rhinoceros born in Calcutta in 1899 was actually a sub-specific hybrid;
D. s. sumatrensis X D. s. lasiotis; which would indicate it was conceived in captivity.