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I am aware that the cats are related, but I do get the feeling, that had Ellis Daw still be in charge, given some help or anything like that, the cat collection would still be flourishing like it once had with the swapping of cats and so on.

Admittedly the way that he bred his cats have been controversial, but he did breed them, something good for the cats, and good for visitors. As far as I know Tazmin is a pure individual being born at Blackpool in 1996, so she was still at breeding age while the takeover began. Building a seperate holding for a jaguar enclosure is not the most expensive thing to build, less expensive than a new enclosure for Japanese Macaques for example. The tiger enclosure holding Tazmin now once held Jaguars, so maybe it's future could be jaguars once again?

Ellis Daw, in my opinion had something right, his enclosure ideas, superb. He achieved success with Jaguars that has never been seen in the UK since or before. He bred tigers that matched to scale would probably come to Aspinall standards, even though his facilities were not built to deal so some say, you cannot deny his achievements with these animals.
AFAIK as I know, the three offspring from Tammy and Spar are all hybrid. The male 'Vlad' is I believe to have had a vasectomy. The only pure female Amur at the Park is Tazmin. Tazmin, Turlouch and Tammy were the only cubs successfully born to pure-bred pair Sheya and Jagasar at Blackpool.

Not many Zoo's breed Jaguars these days whether it's down to, the studbook holder recommending them not to or there is something wrong with that animal, only Dartmoor and Chester have bred them either successfully or none successfully in the UK from the current list of holders.
 
I am aware that the cats are related, but I do get the feeling, that had Ellis Daw still be in charge, given some help or anything like that, the cat collection would still be flourishing like it once had with the swapping of cats and so on.

Admittedly the way that he bred his cats have been controversial, but he did breed them, something good for the cats, and good for visitors. As far as I know Tazmin is a pure individual being born at Blackpool in 1996, so she was still at breeding age while the takeover began. Building a seperate holding for a jaguar enclosure is not the most expensive thing to build, less expensive than a new enclosure for Japanese Macaques for example. The tiger enclosure holding Tazmin now once held Jaguars, so maybe it's future could be jaguars once again?

Ellis Daw, in my opinion had something right, his enclosure ideas, superb. He achieved success with Jaguars that has never been seen in the UK since or before. He bred tigers that matched to scale would probably come to Aspinall standards, even though his facilities were not built to deal so some say, you cannot deny his achievements with these animals.


Sorry to disagree. Ellis Daw did not do anything right or anything good especially regarding the exotic cats held their during his time. His stance against the authorities including the zoo community, licencing etc was just a disgrace. The manner he kept the zoo and the enclosures was so bad that it did require pulling down and restarting and, the poor ethics and husbandry was again down to his own lack of common sense and good. Putting Ellis Daw on a pedastal and even comparing him to Aspinall is wrong and flawed, even O'Grady was miles ahead of Daw, even having Jaguar breed. Ellis Daw was nothing speacial, a man who was highly flawed and eccentric, full of daft ideas and always wanting to do battle with others. In his own words: "They are my tigers and I will do what I want with them, you can't make me do this." Refering to the court case regarding the tigers. He broke laws left right and centre and stuck two fingers up to everyone, there was no proper zoological courtship in this man, just his ideas that in his eyes were always the right one, even though they were not. ;)
 
I'm sorry but my first visit to Dartmoor was after the Mee's took over, the BBC documentary was what first made me visit, after hearing for years how poor this zoo was. As far as i'm concerned it has steadily got worse over my three visits since then. If it wasn't for the fact they had Bears, there is no way i'd have made my third visit. I could only describe this zoo with expletives. I'm really angry, with myself for being taken in by the tripe spouted on that Documentary, because it promised so much.
 
Breeding at the zoo for the cats is not an option. Never has been. The Lions are father and daughter. All the tigers are related. As for the Jaguar enclosure are you serious? They do not have the space or money to make the investment needed to make the zoo suitable for breeding such animals. Sovereign is also a grumpy sod, he doesn't get on with other Jag's anymore. One of the main reasons he is now on his own.

The Jaguar enclosure happily held a very prolific breeding pair (Domino and Dice) for many years and Sovereign was formally living with 2 females Troy and Indiana (that were moved to Amazona Zoo for unknown reasons) and he bred several times with one or both females-so it is untrue that he cant be mixed. Sovereign is genetically a very viable animal for breeding having been bought over from Beauval Zoo in France by Ellis Daw to establish a new breeding pair.
 
Breeding at the zoo for the cats is not an option. Never has been. The Lions are father and daughter. All the tigers are related. As for the Jaguar enclosure are you serious? They do not have the space or money to make the investment needed to make the zoo suitable for breeding such animals. Sovereign is also a grumpy sod, he doesn't get on with other Jag's anymore. One of the main reasons he is now on his own.

The Jaguar enclosure happily held a very prolific breeding pair (Domino and Dice) for many years and Sovereign was formally living with 2 females Troy and Indiana (that were moved to Amazona Zoo for unknown reasons) and he bred several times with one or both females-so it is untrue that he cant be mixed. Sovereign is genetically a very viable animal for breeding having been bought over from Beauval Zoo in France by Ellis Daw to establish a new breeding pair.

I also think he isn't a 'difficult' animal he can be mixed with other Jaguars (Females that is!) in fact Sovereign did breed with Indianna I think. Indianna and Troy were the offspring of Dice and Domino, who were ZSL Whipsnade's ex Jaguars at the time. Sovereign and Indianna had three cubs in 2004/05 Athena, Ares and another male who's name escapes me. They were hand-reared for some reason which didn't become apparent, Athena is now held at a private collection. Ares is now at WHF and I'm not sure what became of the last cub.

I am also fairly certain that Sovereign and Edinburgh's male 'Mowgli' are related in some way. I think either Sovereign's mother of father died and another took the place of he/she so either Sovereign's mother/father mated with the new male/female at Beauval.
 
Satan has a fair point on Soveriegn, Jaguars just like any cats can be difficult to mix, and he must getting to a fair age by now, probably past breeding age. So to mix him in with a female, might be more difficult than it could have been.

However from what I have seen and experienced, female company in 'difficult' male cats, has actually helped to calm them down.
 
Satan has a fair point on Soveriegn, Jaguars just like any cats can be difficult to mix, and he must getting to a fair age by now, probably past breeding age. So to mix him in with a female, might be more difficult than it could have been.

However from what I have seen and experienced, female company in 'difficult' male cats, has actually helped to calm them down.

As you say Sovereign is getting on a bit. He is thirteen so theoretically he could still breed as I know a male Jaguar in Germany sired some cubs a few months ago at a late age, he must have been fourteen or fifteen. Sovereign has been known for his grumpiness of late.:p

I agree with what your saying with the 'difficult' males have calmed down a lot with the introduction of females. Having seen 'Ben's Zoo' apparently Sovereign has always been a bit grumpy.
 
Was that because they didn't have the holding facilities to seperate mother and cubs from Sovereign?

Zoos differ on this practice, I know Howletts/Port Lympne leave the males in with the cubs over birth and so on, I take it this was the same at Dartmoor? Hence the reason for the cubs being hand-reared if Sovereign became aggressive? Whereas other zoos, close the male of, so even if the male was to be aggressive it would not effect the raising of the cubs by their mother.

After all males, especially of cats don't normally tolerate cubs, so it is not too surprising that this could occur.
 
So which is it, he isn't difficult or he is?

Jordan you are so full of BS it's unreal. He is the reason the cubs were hand reared, he is the reason the females were moved. He became aggressive.

Can I just say you are a rather rude person, I don't wish and want to start an argument here however, swearing at someone who is not an adult yet is totally out order IMO.

He wasn't the reason the cubs were hand-reared, the females had a totally different area to him and he was no where near the cubs at any point! And I have just noticed I've made a mistake, only one cub was hand-reared as the BBC have stated 'mum Dianna had to many to cope with'.
 
Was that because they didn't have the holding facilities to seperate mother and cubs from Sovereign?

Zoos differ on this practice, I know Howletts/Port Lympne leave the males in with the cubs over birth and so on, I take it this was the same at Dartmoor? Hence the reason for the cubs being hand-reared if Sovereign became aggressive? Whereas other zoos, close the male of, so even if the male was to be aggressive it would not effect the raising of the cubs by their mother.

After all males, especially of cats don't normally tolerate cubs, so it is not too surprising that this could occur.


Dartmoor was, and I use was, a park that did have potential and like many zoos and parks, the potential is always there, scope for making areas better will always be there.

The downside was Daw himself and the manner and attitude he had regarding everything. The house he lived in was squaller, falling down, inside was a mess and akin to a horder gone mad. The park was in a ruined state, the enclosures were in such a poor state of affairs that everything suffered, then there was Daw's own attitude towards everything, but he disliked authority so much that he made enemies everywhere including keeping staff.

Jaguar are always moody, smart and down-right feisty. I remember at Glasgow, the jaguar's put holes in the metal drinkers, paws would appear from nowhere and you needed eyes in all areas such as their stealth and cunning.

Trying to compare apples with oranges, such as Daw to Aspinal would not fair wise as both were in a different league in their own right, moreso, Aspinal would be seen as a greater player regarding exotics and breeding compared to that of Daw and some others.

Ben Mee, like many collections today have hit a finacial barrier, today's climate is so budget controlled and tight that I am sure that some well known collections will soon appear in the news due to cuts and even closures. My own personal feeling to the Mee's is that: At the start it was a struggle and very close to ending, then as months went by, a small wind of change appeared and all seemed brighter. Somehow, things have lost their way, a spirit has been lost and their is no hunger to make the park better or even upto a collection of repute. We all know that there are many reasons for such downward spirals at Dartmoor, some though are hidden and we may never know. Dartmoor is not in my eyes a place of endevour, a place that has spark and forward planning or conservation ready - ready for the next 10 years or so. It is surviving and that is how many will see it and see other collections too. ;)
 
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Is it a harsh comment to say that the Mee's seem deluded by their film, and that the park seems to be in a stand still since development on the film started?
 
The film shouldn't have had any bearing on the running of the park really. Although it has gone to their heads. The fact that almost everything has been changed from the original source material.

Their prices are ridiculous. The attitude from those who are supposed to be involved with customer relations is also leaving somewhat to be desired. After 4 attempts I still haven't had response concerning membership to the zoo or possible animal adoption. So they can go and swing for it as far as I am concerned.

£250 to be a keeper for a day is a joke at such a small collection. Chester or other large collection yes, but not at something that is a giant back yard.

I have no idea why the are trying for a new enclosure for new animals, when the coatis or racoons could do with something new and more interesting. The car park should be a priority, the state of the paths around the zoo, drainage within it. Making the facilities better. All of these should be more important than bringing in another animal.
 
Can I just say you are a rather rude person, I don't wish and want to start an argument here however, swearing at someone who is not an adult yet is totally out order IMO.

He wasn't the reason the cubs were hand-reared, the females had a totally different area to him and he was no where near the cubs at any point! And I have just noticed I've made a mistake, only one cub was hand-reared as the BBC have stated 'mum Dianna had to many to cope with'.

I don't often post on here, but I keep noticing people trying to bully this kid. Whats the issue? Its pathetic, let someone be keen, if you think they are wrong, correct them in a supportive and constructive way, but how ridiculous for adults to be attacking a young person on here.

As for the jaguars at Dartmoor, I think its a bit of a push for anyone to suggest the cubs were hand-reared because of the male's temperment.
 
I don't often post on here, but I keep noticing people trying to bully this kid. Whats the issue? Its pathetic, let someone be keen, if you think they are wrong, correct them in a supportive and constructive way, but how ridiculous for adults to be attacking a young person on here.

I would just add that Jordan-Jaguar has rapidly developed into a pretty reliable source of information on here during the last couple of years and has become an increasingly valued contributor, particularly on the UK Forums. He still sometimes makes mistakes but then so do we all.
 
I would just add that Jordan-Jaguar has rapidly developed into a pretty reliable source of information on here during the last couple of years and has become an increasingly valued contributor, particularly on the UK Forums. He still sometimes makes mistakes but then so do we all.

I would certainly agree 100% with both your statement,and also that of Johnstoni, as someone who is fast approaching the big 50, I can say I have learned things which I did not know from the postings of young Jordon, you are never to old to learn:)
 
Annoucement via Facebook today that they are "preparing for Zebra" (Don't know what sub-species)
 
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