Steve has put what I think a lot better than I can.
The people trying to Vilify Tony Ratcliffe have another agenda and are putting politics before the elephant.
Franklin Zoo (Closed) Elephant Kills Woman at Franklin Zoo
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Steve has put what I think a lot better than I can.
The people trying to Vilify Tony Ratcliffe have another agenda and are putting politics before the elephant.
that is a good summary right thereSteve Robinson said:
So you still think the Elephant "accidentally" killed her. If the site had not been disturbed it would not be to hard to see tracks which would help in working out what happened.
From what I have read Jumbo was considered a dangerous elephant and that is why she was ment to be in protected contact. Helen broke that rule and went in with her and was killed. That does not sound like an accident.
Why would anyone have needed to look at the marks on the ground to work out what happened. There were witnesses there who saw what happened.
............ and they all seem to have different versions of the event!
An elephant man would not need to have observed elephants in the wild in order to get an idea of what really did happen by studying the ground around the scene.
Correct.
Tony Ratcliffe worked Jumbo in exactly the same way that elephants are worked at Auckland, Taronga, Melbourne and throughout South-east Asia.
As is usual with witness accounts, should be enough in them to determine if it was a deliberate killing or not though.
The problem will be in the interpretation of the accounts. Different people will interpret an animal's actions in different ways.
Something that continues to trouble me is that I didn't remonstrate with Helen about what she was doing with Jumbo. At the time she was surrounded by fans who all agreed with her that Jumbo "loved" her. Helen was in her element in that company. To an animal person it was clear that Jumbo didn't "love" her but was trying her out, pushing to see where the boundaries were. Two completely different interpretations of the one set of actions.
Rather than cause a scene at the time, we agreed to meet with Helen at the ZAA conference in August and we were going to discuss it then.
Had I said what needed to be said at the time, this thread might not be here.
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I was surprised when I heard Helen had been going into the enclosure with the elephant.
The last time I spoke with her, which was not long after Mila arrived, she said they were implementing a pretty much hands off policy, with the only contact being between the posts.
I guess as you say she was encouraged by well meaning fans who urged her to get closer.
Say what they will about Tony Ratcliffe, he handled the elephant for 30 years without a single mishap.
In this whole saga "what they said "does not always match up with "what they did". I don't think that Helen needed any encouraging. She truly saw herself as the "saviour" of this elephant. Certainly, as time went by, she seemed to lose touch with the reality of the situation. You only have to go back to the press statements and website comments to see this. Early on there were lots of comments about Jumbo being a healthy elephant and well adjusted, taking the move to FZ in her stride - all that sort of thing. As time went by the AR BS started to creep in. Maybe Helen had to dance to the tune that the AR pipers were playing - who knows. By the time that we saw her in February she was singing a song that was barely recognisable as the truth. There was a young girl present who claimed to be involved with "Lawyers for Animals" or some such. She and Helen fed off each other and whipped themselves up into such a lather of self-righteous indignation about Tony Ratcliffe that there was no way that anything that I could have said to Helen about Jumbo on that day would have sunk in to her. Unfortunately we left NZ the next day and had no chance to talk again with Helen.
My last visit there was about the time that young Malaysian or Indonesian guy was leaving, I think he may have had some experience with Elephants.
the elephant keepers visiting from Aus had not long left, I presume that was probably yourself and another well known elephant man who had been there.
At that stage Helen was still pretty realistic and onto it about handling and caring for that particular elephant, with very limited hands on being her stated policy.
Its pretty common that animal handlers who have hands on with dangerous animals end up coming to grief.
I suppose there is something in the old tales of Indian Mahouts and their elephants which said they were life partners and seldom would an elephant accept a new mahout fully, and nor would a new mahout, even if experienced with elephants, be able to completely understand and trust a new elephant.
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True, this often mentioned AR BS about billhooks being cruel is a perfect example.
I bet that Movie "Water for Elephants" has added to the anti billhook sentiments too.
Sure has - particularly the hilarious scene where the cruel circus boss goes into the railroad car with a bullhook and an adult elephant - and emerges victorious with the elephant laying prostrate on the floor of the car!
A mate of mine got thrown out of a cinema in South Africa for laughing out loud during that scene while all those around him were near tears.
Not me - I wasn't there at that time.
I wouldn't say that it is common for FC handlers to come to grief, any more than it is common for farmers with bulls or strappers with stallions. As a matter of fact, an incident with a person and an exotic animal usually makes the headlines because it is uncommon.
"Life partners" pretty well sums it up. Another reason why Jumbo's "life partner" should be the one to take her to her new home.
I stand corrected on the bit about handlers coming to harm, not many elephant handlers come to any harm as far as I know.
I was really meaning big cat handlers, few of them who practice hands on with their animals don't get chewed up at some stage.
I certainly can't agree with you on that.
I've worked big cats FC for 46 years without a scratch. I know all of the big cat trainers in this part of the world for the past 60 years or so and don't know any who had any major grief - couple of scratches to some but that is all. The Tiger Island guys at Dreamworld work FC all day, every day and have had no major injuries. Once again a few scratches, bit of a nip but that is all.
The dramas appear to be with animals that were normally kept in a PC situation but, usually through human error, find themselves able to access a human. The tragic case of the tiger keeper at Taronga some years back is a case in point.
I've worked big cats FC for 46 years without a scratch. I know all of the big cat trainers in this part of the world for the past 60 years or so and don't know any who had any major grief - couple of scratches to some but that is all. The Tiger Island guys at Dreamworld work FC all day, every day and have had no major injuries. Once again a few scratches, bit of a nip but that is all.
The dramas appear to be with animals that were normally kept in a PC situation but, usually through human error, find themselves able to access a human. The tragic case of the tiger keeper at Taronga some years back is a case in point.
Well again, I'll take your word for it, I am a firm believer in no FC with big cats, I have seen far too often what they can do. of course my experience has been with lions that will maul and kill anyone they can get their claws on. FC is quite common in Africa too, with places where tourists can pat young lions and walk with them being quite common. The fact most of these lions are destined for the trophy hunting industry is something tourists either don't know about, or don't really care about.
I think, though Im not sure, that the UK forbade FC some years back after a couple of tiger keeper fatalities, NZ did it of course after Zion. (although Zion was well overdue for an incident anyway)
I guess though it proves there is no substitute for experience coupled with common sense. An acquaintance who commonly goes in with numbers of lions in SA and even plays and sleeps with full grown lions has plenty do the former, but not a lot of the latter in my opinion. he's been mauled a few times, and I think will eventually end up dead.
Another guy somewhat well known in African guiding circles has spent years walking up to wild dangerous game, and so far has got away with it.
I really call it the luck of the draw. But I suppose plenty of people are attacked by their own dogs too.
Although I staunchly defend the right of properly trained and experienced people to interact FC with suitable adult Big Cats, I can think of no sensible reason why members of the public should do so. I am yet to be convinced that public interaction with Big Cats in excess of 20kg is about anything more than raising money. The risks are just not worth the money.
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