Franklin Zoo (Closed) Elephant Kills Woman at Franklin Zoo

[driftaguy]

frankwilliam, calm down.

Tony had to do as he was told by Peter Johnson and his hours were stipulated , he had certain feeding times set down by the circus , I know because he spoke to me about this on the phone , he had a bull hook yes , and it fitted in his pocket , that elephant would follow him any where , and i believe it still would

I have no idea who Peter Johnson is, but if you were told to do something against your beliefs that would cause an animal harm for no reason, would you? I certainly wouldn't, no matter what the case.

why dont you go and care for the elephant

If I had a lot of experience in captive elephant care, then I would offer to go down to Franklin Zoo to care for Mila.

dont go on about TONY , he will always be there for jumbo , and pick up the pieces

No, he won't. He's getting old, and I'm sure he's past the retirement age. Asian elephants can live until around 80 years in captivity, Mila is 39.

chase the man who gave her to the N,Z,R,S,P,C,A, AND WITHOUT EVEN A HANDLER

I do know that he was unfairly dismissed by the Webers. However, last I heard, Tony Ratcliffe was living out of a trailer/campervan. So it doesn't sound like he is rolling in money, so how could he afford to care for an elephant?

Webers had Henri Schroer on hand the so called great elephant man and he did nothing , also elephant experts STROUD and POND

Laurie Pond helped Franklin Zoo when they first acquired Mila. Peter Stroud helped design the enclosure, I think.

do you want the guys blood

No, I don't.

if you want to chase ghosts

Again, no I don't.


Finally, a quote from the end of Tony Ratcliffe's 'The Elephant Man' book:

Eventually she may bond with someone special at the zoo.
Good luck to Franklin Zoo.

And, of course, right after the tragedy, Tony Ratcliffe says that Mila most likely intended to kill her keeper and he needed to look for 'signs in the dirt', which doesn't make sense because he has never worked with elephants in the wild.

Personally, I wouldn't want anything to do with Tony Ratcliffe, due to the many bad things I have heard about him (basically the tent peg incident, and what he has done to animal rights protesters).

 

[sharonbm]

Anyone with an animal's interests truly at heart isn't going to stay away on a hot hot day just because those aren't his ours to work, and especially when everyone he works with is wondering where he is. Makes no sense at all. Sorry frankwilliam, you won't change my mind.

Pond and Stroud are both incredible men who know elephants and have changed the lives of many elephants including Mila. Tony was only brought back to unshackle Mila. Once she was unshackled, he wasn't needed again, and neither were the shackles.

 

[sharonbm]

What's the tent peg incident about driftaguy?

 

[driftaguy]

What's the tent peg incident about driftaguy?

Elephant man finds solution to a Jumbo problem | Stuff.co.nz

Two years, nine months in prison for manslaughter, for fatally injuring, with a tent peg, a gang-affiliated 32-year-old who had wanted to take his 13-year-old stepdaughter to the stock cars one day in Napier in 1973

I can understand that he wouldn't be happy with a gang-affiliated 32-year-old wanting to take his 13-year-old stepdaughter to the stock cars, but that's what the police are there for.

I have read various things from animal rights activists about Tony Ratcliffe, but I'm quite sure that there were problems on both sides.

 

[sharonbm]

Has anyone read Tony's book?

 

[Monty]

And, of course, right after the tragedy, Tony Ratcliffe says that Mila most likely intended to kill her keeper and he needed to look for 'signs in the dirt', which doesn't make sense because he has never worked with elephants in the wild.

Personally, I wouldn't want anything to do with Tony Ratcliffe, due to the many bad things I have heard about him (basically the tent peg incident, and what he has done to animal rights protesters).

So you still think the Elephant "accidentally" killed her. If the site had not been disturbed it would not be to hard to see tracks which would help in working out what happened.
From what I have read Jumbo was considered a dangerous elephant and that is why she was ment to be in protected contact. Helen broke that rule and went in with her and was killed. That does not sound like an accident.

 

[driftaguy]

Where did I use the word 'accidentally'? Even so, it's still a possibility that Mila meant no harm, no matter how unlikely it is.

The point of that part of the post was to give an example of how one minute Tony Ratcliffe will say something and then say something completely different the next.

 

[frankwilliam]

you have no balls to talk about an incident many years ago , you would have done the same thing , or would you lay down and cry , the elephant has got good qaurters , i have have not seen her yet , but Tony did the other day , the elephant is messed up and will be difficult to handle because of Helens lack of knowlege , dont go down that path , because TONY and myself ARE POSSIBLY THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN HANDLE JUMBO , AT LEAST HE HAS offered his help , and respects the situation that has occurred , I can assure you he will not back down against you or jumbo , the man is a survivor and my mate .

 

[Chlidonias]

you have no balls to talk about an incident many years ago , you would have done the same thing , or would you lay down and cry , the elephant has got good qaurters , i have have not seen her yet , but Tony did the other day , the elephant is messed up and will be difficult to handle because of Helens lack of knowlege , dont go down that path , because TONY and myself ARE POSSIBLY THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN HANDLE JUMBO , AT LEAST HE HAS offered his help , and respects the situation that has occurred , I can assure you he will not back down against you or jumbo , the man is a survivor and my mate .

seriously, calm down Frank. I think all of the posters on this thread are now well aware of Helen's inability to handle an elephant, and most (including myself) are of the opinion that Tony should indeed be utilised to to enable Jumbo to be moved, but your posting style won't win you any support. Take a breath before posting.

 

[chip]

I see no problem with Franks post.
What is needed to secure the best future for Jumbo is passion. Passion for the animals future.

I dont like circus`s, never have,never will.

But you cant change the past, we all can look back and realise we may have done things in a different way, but from an outsiders point of view its obvious who is the person to oversee the situation and make the most of a bad situation.

I have 3 questions, if someone can supply definitive answers.

What happened to the benifactor who is donationg the large sum of money?

Who is the decision maker in all of this?

Why the delay now?

 

[Pouakai Zoo]

no it was purely an assumption. I thought that was clear from the post. The exotic animals at Franklin have to go to a facility that holds a zoo licence. As zooboy28 has said most of the animals are ones not wanted or required by ZAA zoos, so the most likely outcome if they are to be rehomed is for them to go to non-ZAA private zoos. If they do go to ZAA zoos most of them would probably go into off-display holdings where they serve no purpose. There are a few options in the private non-ZAA category but Pouakai seemed most likely as you already hold macaques etc (whether you would want Franklin's animals or have room for them is another matter entirely of course). The bit about you wanting to acquire more zebra after your one died was from a media release by yourselves (I can't remember if it was on your website, on here, or in an online article).

We have made contact and put our hand up to rehome animals....but it was made clear that ZAA will take care of it. It would be tragic if any were 'put to sleep' and not offered to us here, as we are able to help. Fingers crossed it all goes well for everyone, from ZAA to Franklin to the new homes and of course for the animals mostly.
It going to take a long time to sort things out at Franklin....once again we just have to wait and see. Thanks

 

[driftaguy]

Frank William, you think that you can come onto these forums and speak like that? Absolutely not. And without even contributing anything to ZooChat? You come on here and personally attack anyone who does not believe that Tony Ratcliffe is the right person to be looking after Mila, how rude. And, I do have balls. Believe me, if it was just me and you on here, I would not be so polite. As I, unlike you, have respect for the ZooChat administrators, moderators, and forum members, even if we do have different opinions. And Frank William, why should you look after Mila? Who are you? The guy who called up talkback right after the tragedy? And now that I’ve thought about it, what I first wrote about someone who shackles up and uses a bull hook on an elephant actually loving the elephant, I do think that Tony Ratcliffe loves Mila. But, it’s not what love should be. Love is used as an excuse for pain and suffering. Tony was controlling the relationship, and Mila did what he wanted her to do, when he wanted her to do it.

And, you should know that:
· Mila’s name is now Mila, not Jumbo. It was changed. If you changed your name, I would no longer call you your old name, so show some respect. And I’m not dumb; I know exactly what you are doing by using Mila’s old name.
· How about editing your posts before sending them? Then they would be much easier to read.

Now that we’ve sorted that out, I really don’t want to waste my time responding to your negative, aggressive, argumentative and just plain rude messages.

Not many people agree with big cat owners who believe that they ‘love’ them back, because they don’t attack them like a wild big cat would. So why believe Tony Ratcliffe’s “She loves me” opinion?

I usually do not post my opinion on these forums, mainly due to mostly everyone on here having such a strong belief in what they believe in regarding to zoos. Whether it’s believing in either hands-on or hands-off contact with animals being better, how an elephant should be handled (and who by), or whatever. Obviously, those who believe Tony Ratcliffe should be in charge of Mila think that is the right choice, and those who believe the opposite think they know better. And after reading through the Zion debate, and now this, I’m left wondering if it’s actually possible to run a private zoo without a load of arguments and criticism. Can’t we all just get along, no matter what our beliefs? Most of us are on this forum for the one same reason.

I know that what Tony Ratcliffe did was a long time ago, and I’m sure he regrets the way in which everything in that situation happened. However, once you have a criminal record, it doesn’t just disappear. But other people would have been affected by that event, not just Tony and the man who died. For the record, that article was from 2008, so Tony Ratcliffe obviously doesn’t mind bringing it up. And, I only read that article after the tragedy, and after I had decided that I didn’t agree with Tony Ratcliffe’s way of handling things. However, people do make mistakes and no one’s perfect.

If Tony Ratcliffe had never made the completely stupid decision of bringing an elephant into a circus, then this whole tragedy would not have happened. No elephant = no tragedy.

So many people are misinformed about this situation. Recently I was talking to a relative who was definite that two keepers were killed by Mila, after her Social Studies teacher at school gave them a current affairs quiz and the teacher said that it was two keepers, not one.

I think that Tony’s practices of elephant handling might have been appropriate 100 years ago, but definitely not now. No good zoo manages their elephants like that these days, and the Ringling Bros. Circus has been largely criticised for the abuse of their elephants.

Finally, I would like to make it clear that I do not hate Tony Ratcliffe, we just have different views. For me, exotic animals in zoos with decent suitable enclosures = great, but exotic animals in circuses = absolutely not. I hope that Tony Ratcliffe takes the time to read this thread.

 

[sharonbm]

On the change of Mila's name, people may not realize that Mila was named that originally before she came to New Zealand. Tony called her Jumbo. So, in effect, Helen just reverted to calling her by her registered name in the elephant database.

 

[sharonbm]

You can see her names here Jumbo (Mila, Melanie Kai, Mele Kahea), an African Bush elephant at Franklin Zoo and Wildlife sanctuary

 

[Chlidonias]

Obviously, those who believe Tony Ratcliffe should be in charge of Mila think that is the right choice, and those who believe the opposite think they know better.

on this specific point, I don't think anyone on Zoochat has suggested Tony should take the elephant back and keep her. My understanding is that he (Tony) is not in good health anyway. It is more the case that most posters here think that the easiest and best solution to get Mila moved is for Tony to do the job as he quite obviously can control the elephant. The majority opinion on this thread, whatever one's personal thoughts on Tony, is that it is better to get the move to America (or where-ever) done quickly and cheaply with Tony's help, than to spend a year and over a million dollars doing it whatever way Jenny Chung thinks is the way to do it.

 

[sharonbm]

I think Jenny Chung is being unnecessarily maligned here. She's the front person, but she also has the support of elephant experts who are caring for Mila in the meantime. Of course she needs money, and good on her for asking for it. She's been left in one hell of a position. But Tony's track record is there in black and white for anyone to see. Allowing Tony back in to Mila's life would be like rescuing a kidnap victim, then sending them back into the hands of their kidnapper while the rescuers figured out how to get them to a better place. A horrendous thought.

 

[Chlidonias]

Allowing Tony back in to Mila's life would be like rescuing a kidnap victim, then sending them back into the hands of their kidnapper while the rescuers figured out how to get them to a better place. A horrendous thought.

no, its like taking an animal from one owner and sending it to a new owner, and then bringing the original owner back to facilitate a move to a third owner.

 

[sharonbm]

with that original owner having a well documented less than flattering reputation for ill treatment ...

 

[sharonbm]

The point is, Mila is being cared for now by Auckland Zoo and Hamilton Zoo so she's in good hands.

 

[Steve Robinson]

What a pity that the BS is still flowing over this tragic incident.

For a couple of you to have to dredge up an incident in Tony Ratcliffe's past merely demonstrates the paucity of your case against the man. For the record, that incident occurred about the time that Jumbo was born and long before she came to NZ. It has absolutely nothing to do with today's situation.

The description of the situation in Waihi is also typically one sided. Once again, for the record, Mr Ratcliffe had been having increasing concerns about some of the new owner's directives about what was to happen to the elephant. At this stage, Mr Ratcliffe was only an employee of the new owner but became so concerned about some of the new owner's directives that he withdrew his services on several occasions until some of those situations were rectified. Waihi was one of those occasions. He was so concerned about Jumbo's welfare that he notified the then MAF and the NZRSPCA. This so incensed the new owner that he sacked Mr Ratcliffe. Much, much more to that whole secenario than what you are aware of sharonbm.

You can love Tony Ratcliffe or loathe him - it doesn't matter a damn. You can like circuses or not - who cares. You can criticise Tony's elephant skills until you run out of words - it is all hot air. You can define "love" any way that suits you. Tony loves Jumbo and she never hurt him. Helen loved Jumbo and she killed her. Fact. The undisputable fact remains that he worked with that elephant for nearly 30 years without any major issues. He is the right man to get her crated and freighted to wherever her owners decide is the best place for her to go.

And, without trying to annoy anyone, I do still call her Jumbo - that was her name for 30 years and that is what she knows and answers to. One of her current problems is the ignorance of the people who have controlled her life for the past couple of years - they changed her name, they changed her commands, they refused to let her have access to the one human with whom she had a truly good relationship. In short - they turned her life upside down, confused the heck out of her and created the recipe for the ensuing tragedy.

I would love to see the end of this thread and so I implore those with the power to do so to shake off the money begging parasites, employ Tony Ratcliffe as Elephant Manager with Frank as his keeper and you will have Jumbo in her new home in a matter of months.

Not to do so indicates to me that the elephant's welfare is not your real agenda.