Franklin Zoo (Closed) Elephant Kills Woman at Franklin Zoo

[Steve Robinson]

Ladies and gentlemen, this thread has gotten seriously out of hand. I have deleted most of the comments made over the last few months. Personal vendettas will not be tolerated on here. If this thread cannot be continued in a civil fashion, I will be closing it permanently.

Here endeth robust free speech!

 

[kiwipo]

No, they have been raising money for her care at Franklin Zoo, including hiring the elephant manager, as well as caring for the other animals that were there. At least, that is what they will say when asked. I'm thinking there will be a big appeal, quite possibly supported by local animal welfare charities, in the next couple of months to pay for Mila's rehoming (and associated costs...).

That is not what I have been led to believe, for many mnths now they have been telling people they need a million plus fo cover the costs of frieghting the elephant to the US. This money was said to be required to cover the costs of the special box required (even though a crate was reported to be donated) the costs of the actual transport (even though an offer had bene made to tenasport the ele for free) and the costs of training her to go into the box for transport (even though she had spent most of her life being transported around in a box)

Now they come up with the latest news that suggests they haven't even decided on a place to send the elephant, or begun to put aside any money for it's transport.

If all this many asked and recieced so far is going into the care of one elephant, how was it that Helen managed to feed and care for the elephant, including getting a special enclosure and house constructed, on the budget she had back then?

I don't believe it costs that much to look after one elephant even if they have to hire an elephant expert from overseas.

Way back I was willing to donate to the fund for moving the elephant so long as someone was willing to show me just where the money was to be spent, at that time I beleived the money asked for was going to the moving of the elephant overseas.

Now we are told that money was never goingto be used for that purpose, and money for moving the elephant has yet to be saved.

African elephants can live for fifty or sixty years in captivity, at this rate Jenny Chung should have another 15 to 25 years of guarnateed income.

 

[kiwipo]

Even if the diseases weren't a concern, Auckland Zoo wouldn't take her for several reasons. If Mila and Burma did not get along, the only place they could be separated would be in the elephant house. And if Auckland Zoo did take Mila, and she did get along with Burma, I'm rather certain that Auckland Zoo would not take the chance of handling Mila hands-on like they do with Burma. This means that no keepers would be able to enter the enclosure while the elephants are in there (as the elephant house is the only area where protected contact is available).

Simple enough to change that, Auckland were already thinking about having a huge herd of elephants and constructing a far larger enclosure, which would have meant a huge ele house with a separate pen for each elephant.
It wouldn't be a huge problem to separate the elephants if need be, and since Mila had been handled in the circus since she was young hands on with her wouldnt be impossible either, especially if she had Burma along side.

I've spoken to a couple of ele handlers who say in 99% of cases cow eles put together make friends and enjoy each other's company. Even in the wild cow elephants can swap from one herd to another and be accepted.

Different with bulls of course, but then they usually live alone anyway.

 

[Steve Robinson]

I've spoken to a couple of ele handlers who say in 99% of cases cow eles put together make friends and enjoy each other's company.

Not true. Integrating elephants, even cows, is fraught with danger.

Even the sanctuaries, with their vast areas of land, have found that they need to keep many cows as singletons because of their incompatability with others. Unfortunately we only get shown pictures of the compatible animals roaming "free". The singletons, in much smaller accomodation, aren't good for propaganda and so we rarely get to see that side of the picture.

 

[kiwipo]

Not true. Integrating elephants, even cows, is fraught with danger.

Even the sanctuaries, with their vast areas of land, have found that they need to keep many cows as singletons because of their incompatability with others. Unfortunately we only get shown pictures of the compatible animals roaming "free". The singletons, in much smaller accomodation, aren't good for propaganda and so we rarely get to see that side of the picture.

I'll bow to your superior knowledge on this one, the people I know handled Indian elephants brought to Africa for training African elephants. And they had few problems, maybe they were lucky.
I have personal experience though of wild elephant cows joining other herds and being accepted, not always, sometimes they get drivien off, but in times of short food supply even herd members can be driven away.

But Auckland Zoo were planning on getting another elephant or more anyway, so the problems of incompatibility with another elephant didn't bother them.
The main reason they gave was that the different species would not mix, and African elephants carried deiseases which might prove a risk to their Indian. Which I know to be wrong, both elephants have lived in NZ most of their lives, and would no longer have any diseases from their home countries. And there ar eplenty fo zoos where African and Indian do live together.

It's also been said that tigers and lions can't be put together because they will fight, or adult lions can't be put together for the same reason.
Not always the case, there are plenty of examples where adult lions and tigers have mixed sucessfully.

So they could have at least tried to see if they would like each other, Auckland zoo is set up to seperate elephants if need be.

 

[Steve Robinson]

It is a lot more complex than that.

I think that you will find that Auckland Zoo have a long term plan for their elephant holdings, and that plan does not include an elephant from Africa. The presence of Jumbo at Auckland would seriously inhibit the good work that will shortly be commenced with the Asian species.

There would be absolutely no point in taking Jumbo to Auckland, even on animal welfare grounds, if a suitable home exists for her elsewhere.

Where that home is now going to be is anybody's guess. The recent death of Pat Derby may have an influence on the PAWS option.

 

[kiwipo]

It is a lot more complex than that.

I think that you will find that Auckland Zoo have a long term plan for their elephant holdings, and that plan does not include an elephant from Africa. The presence of Jumbo at Auckland would seriously inhibit the good work that will shortly be commenced with the Asian species.

There would be absolutely no point in taking Jumbo to Auckland, even on animal welfare grounds, if a suitable home exists for her elsewhere.

Where that home is now going to be is anybody's guess. The recent death of Pat Derby may have an influence on the PAWS option.

Which brings us back to the most recent news item, that despite all the time that has passed not only have they not got a destination piked, they haven't even started to put aside any money for the move.

So what were all those donations solicited for? I beleived they were raising money for her move a long time ago, but now it seems that money was to pay for the running of the zoo, which now would have practially no animals anyway.
They might as well just leave her where she is.

 

[Spixii]

But Auckland Zoo were planning on getting another elephant or more anyway, so the problems of incompatibility with another elephant didn't bother them.
The main reason they gave was that the different species would not mix, and African elephants carried deiseases which might prove a risk to their Indian. Which I know to be wrong, both elephants have lived in NZ most of their lives, and would no longer have any diseases from their home countries. And there ar eplenty fo zoos where African and Indian do live together.

So they could have at least tried to see if they would like each other, Auckland zoo is set up to seperate elephants if need be.

The current plans for Aukland includes the imminent import of two young cows from Sri Lanka, in hopes of starting a extended breeding program in collaboration with Australia's. Meaning elephant calves will be on site with in five years. Although Mila may not exhibit signs of illness (EEHV1 is often dormant in African elephants) even her temporary residence at the Aukland zoo will introduce the virus to Burma, the Sri Lanka animals, and consequent calves. It is just a risk which Aukland rightfully is not willing to take.

 

[Steve Robinson]

the zoo, which now would have practially no animals anyway.
They might as well just leave her where she is.

None, except for Jumbo apparently.

Leaving her there is no longer an option thanks to Mrs Chung chasing away at least two potential purchasers of the zoo as a going concern.

 

[Taisha]

Ladies and gentlemen, this thread has gotten seriously out of hand. I have deleted most of the comments made over the last few months. Personal vendettas will not be tolerated on here. If this thread cannot be continued in a civil fashion, I will be closing it permanently.

Looks like a strange choice to me what you have deleted.
Insults: very understandable. Maybe such a writer should be banned?
But the contributions of Bailey13? I could not discover anything not civil, nor a personal vendetta in his postings. Guess, after that there will be no further effort from his part to explain the situation to us. Pity.

 

[Bailey13]

@Taisha - thanks for the support. I *was* a little rude here and there, I suspect. And my knowledge of the situation is minimal - I met Helen and Mila once on a trip to the zoo and I attended a seminar at Auckland Zoo last week - so I've probably contributed all I can at this stage. I just offered up some opinions based on what I do know and expressed a little frustration about some of the contributions that have been made.

The forum's moderators are within their rights to do whatever they wish, so regardless of whether we feel the decision was right or wrong, it's their ballpark, we just get to play here.

My concern remains with Mila's wellbeing and her future. As I said, I'd love for her to stay at Franklin where there is a facility purpose built for her that will otherwise likely be bulldozed, but if there is not a functioning zoo on the site, that seems unlikely. If Ms Chung is turning away buyers as reported above (possibly as a means to ensure that Mila's future can be secured according to Helen's wishes? Selfish motives? Who knows?) then maybe she has something up her sleeve (the money of wellwishers? Or an emotional attachment that is clouding her judgement?).

I don't care who has Mila, who cares for Jumbo, who keeps her on a site or walks her into a travel crate, as long as it is done humanely and with her wellbeing as first priority. I do know that from what I've seen, she is apparently being well cared for and responding well to that care, which for now is a pretty good deal.

*Note - all of the above is the contribution of somebody whose experience with zoos is almost entirely as a visitor. I am in the process of preparing to train as a zookeeper next year if I can get a placement with a zoo for the practical aspect of the course I want to attend so have done some reading and study, but the most complex animal I have ever actually cared for was a dog, and I could barely toilet train her, so who knows...

 

[Steve Robinson]

That is an escalating problem given the size of this forum now and the inconsistent rulings that are inevitable with so many moderators. Unfortunately there are now no Australasian moderators and therefore antipodean comments are being interpreted by northern hemisphere moderators. They don't seem to understand the robustness of our expression. They often seem to, as in this case, react defensively when one of their own is being criticised.

I feel that ZooChat has been on a downward slide, in this area, for some time now. We are told to accept or ignore the semi literate ravings of children and the seeming disabled, and we have to work our way through a plethora of puerile non-zoo threads.

However, the impassioned outpourings of an elderly Maori man, consumed with concern over a potential welfare issue with an animal that he loves dearly, are not afforded the same tolerance.

 

[frankwilliam]

I feel that Jumbo is on a path to no where and it worries me and Tony how the funds are used for running the Zoo and not for Jumbos freight , wether we like it or not jumbo still faces the death sentence if Ms Ivory fails , nothing is a done deal as far as planes , freight , crating etc etc .

 

[jbnbsn99]

The threads I deleted were either insinuating, contained references to individuals, or quoted crazy rants. I only did a cursory glance through the thread. This has become the most vitriolic thread on the site. As civility has not continued, I am forced to close this thread.

End of discussion.