Franklin Zoo (Closed) Elephant Kills Woman at Franklin Zoo

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frankwilliam said:
I am starting to wonder how many more absurd statements have been made in regard to jumbo and Tony , maybe you should talk to his Veterinarian Dr Brian Gartrell , he was jumbos Vet from nearly day one , when Jumbo arrived , and jumbo only had to sneeze and Tony was on the phone to him , I doubt if you would find any thing wrong with Tony and jumbos relationship .
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Would not have Jumbo killed Tony by now if anything bad was going on?

In nearly 30 yrs I am sure she would have had chance to!

Not one scrap of evidence has come forth to indicate Tony/Jumbo had a bad relationship.

Until I see evidence of anything horrible, I know what I think.
 
when Tony was around jumbo was well behaved, safe around people and a very clever working elephant , she controlled Tony , by banging the side of her trailer for his attention ,he used to get up all hours of the night if it was cold and feed her extra hay , her water was always heated in the winter with a very large emersion heater, also he had a written emergency plan incase of an accident with jumbo or any of his exotic animals , he would never let just any body work with jumbo ,and he was very worried about jumbo hurting some one , and personaly wrote to the Minister for Agriculture making him aware of this fact , I was the person who found out where the N.Z.R.S. P.C.A. was holding jumbo , and told Tony , he was very worried that some one may get hurt and he drove miles from Tauranga to Helensville , when he was told he was needed to help , that elephant will follow the man to the ends of the earth , I do not think the situation will have changed , any body who talks of drugging and winching jumbo , is foolish and taking their lives into their own hands , isnt one death , one to many , I hope good sense prevails and they let my mate do what no one else can do safely , surely that is not too much too ask .
 
frankwilliam said:
when Tony was around jumbo was well behaved, safe around people and a very clever working elephant , she controlled Tony , by banging the side of her trailer for his attention ,he used to get up all hours of the night if it was cold and feed her extra hay , her water was always heated in the winter with a very large emersion heater, also he had a written emergency plan incase of an accident with jumbo or any of his exotic animals , he would never let just any body work with jumbo ,and he was very worried about jumbo hurting some one , and personaly wrote to the Minister for Agriculture making him aware of this fact , I was the person who found out where the N.Z.R.S. P.C.A. was holding jumbo , and told Tony , he was very worried that some one may get hurt and he drove miles from Tauranga to Helensville , when he was told he was needed to help , that elephant will follow the man to the ends of the earth , I do not think the situation will have changed , any body who talks of drugging and winching jumbo , is foolish and taking their lives into their own hands , isnt one death , one to many , I hope good sense prevails and they let my mate do what no one else can do safely , surely that is not too much too ask .
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HERE HERE !
 
I was told that Jumbo was left outside in the freezing cold when she would not go into her house , surely NOT , does any one know if M.A.F. or M.P.I. did any checks to see what was going on with jumbo , and why did they allow all the lies and carry on about jumbo being in poor condition and nursed back to good health , if Jumbo was in poor health when she was delivered why did Helen say she had a perfectly healthy elephant to the press , ? so many discreptancies in the statement , i am told there is not a crate in site and Helen said she was crate training her , and still the carry on , now on a different course , money or jumbo will be put down , how long before some one asks for a break down of where the money is going ? IS it true the M.P.I. are paying all the costs associated with caring for jumbo at the moment , this to me is absurd , they would never pay for any costs when Jumbo was with TONY .
 
FINAL THOUGHT , perhaps the people of New Zealand should be told the truth of the saga , because it is better than coronation street
 
So what is the real reason Tony sold the elephant to the Loritz Circus, and why did Loritz hand the elephant to the SPCA? Why not just give her back to Tony? If anyone believed Tony to be the best person for the elephant, what on earth was going on for her to be handed over? Tony was with Loritz at the time, so how did they manage a relocation to a 'secret' location without Tony knowing about it or being offered her back. And I was also under the impression the place the elephant went to belonged to someone Tony knew well.
Anyone know?
 
Tony Ratcliffe is a man in his mid sixties. Like all of us, he is not going to live for ever. Chances are, Jumbo might outlive him. Therefore, some years ago he started to look for a retirement home for her. Over a period of a couple of years he came to realise that not one zoo anywhere in this region was willing or able to house her.

Along came Harry Weber with his Loritz Circus which was being promoted as being "Out of Africa". A deal was struck whereby Weber would buy Jumbo and hire Tony to be her keeper. In recognition of her advancing years, Jumbo would have pretty much just a walk on role in the circus performance. After the NZ tour the outfit would come to Australia for a national tour here.

Tony's brother, Robin, built a magnificent new trailer for her at his Hamilton transport engineering business.

It didn't take too long for the arrangement to sour. After the major problems at Waihi [which is where you apparently happened upon the unhappy campers] and Te Aroha, Tony was sent by Weber on a wild goose chase to a town that the circus had no intention of showing. By the time he realised this, the elephant had "disappeared". She was taken to a property at Helensville owned by an animal activist. It would be stretching the point to say that she was "someone Tony knew well" but she was certainly well known as an animal "rights" supporter. By this time she was nominally "owned" by the NZRSPCA. Weber had discovered that there was no Import Risk Assessment [IRA] for her species that would permit her to be imported into in Australia. It would take years for an IRA to be developed for African elephants. He had burnt his bridges with Tony Ratcliffe and there was, literally, nobody else who could handle Jumbo. This was clearly apparent when the elephant could not be removed from her trailer at the Helensville property. As Cadders has described, she swiped angrily at any stranger who came near her. After standing in her own waste and without exercise for several days, the NZRSPCA had to call on Tony to come and release her from the trailer. This he willingly did and was absolutely appalled at the conditions that these so called animal lovers had allowed her to exist in. Cadders has described how Jumbo willingly followed Tony out of the trailer and how well she interacted with him. Have those of you who still doubt that this man is the best man to crate and freight Jumbo not read the post by Cadders? He was the NZRSPCA head man on the spot. If you don't want to believe me well at least believe him.

So, why did Weber give the elephant to the NZRSPCA? I have already described that relations between him and Tony Ratcliffe were so poisonous that Weber was never going to return the elephant to him. Tony had previously discovered that no zoo or park could take her so Weber was going to be unable to sell her anywhere and recoup his investment in her. But, by donating her to a registered charity he could claim a tax break on her.

There is no possibility that Tony Ratcliffe's health will allow him to own the elephant again or even tour with a circus any more. Those of you who are worried that this might be a campaign to get Tony to own her again can forget it.
He will be doing well to get her to the States which is why an experienced, reliable sidekick like Frank is a necessity.

Robin Ratcliffe has offered to build an IATA approved travel crate for Jumbo and an experienced and reliable team is already on hand to condition her for the trip.

What is the real agenda of the people who are stalling on this?
 
frankwilliam said:
FINAL THOUGHT , perhaps the people of New Zealand should be told the truth of the saga , because it is better than coronation street
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From what I have read here, I agree.

Steve's last post was also a very informative one, and shows what I have suspected from the start. The treatment and ownership have been run by political beliefs instead of any real concern for the elephant. To many people have believed, and been brainwashed into believing circuses are cruel and any animal is better anywhere else than at a circus, and will not believe anything else even when the facts are staring them in the face. :(
 
Finally, I see a story I can believe.
Like many others who are watching from afar, I am appalled at the lack of concern being shown for Jumbo.


Surely the time is now here for the animal to come first before anything else.

It looks like it should be a done deal.

Crate sorted, handler sorted.....................................

Whats the hold up now?

Paperwork or money?
 
Thanks for the explanation. It begs another question tho. As Tony was looking for a retirement home for the elephant, who was he training or preparing to look after her in the event he was no longer able to? For the elephant to be surrounded by others in the circus, surely someone else or many others should have been working with the elephant so when Tony was no longer able to she wouldn't be traumatized or unwilling and angry to be worked by others?

My understanding is that is the philosophy for captive elephant care now and has been for many years now, that elephants need to be part of a social group which involves more than one handler to avoid the situation that happened at Helensville?
 
STEVE has got the entire sago 95% correct , the other portion was that Harry WEBER had agreed to locate in Africa a man capable of learning to handle and take care of Jumbo , that person was to transitioned to jumbo over a period of two years , this never ever happened , and was proven in the employment Court here in New Zealand , where TONY was awarded $26,000. 00. damages , he was also guaranteed in front of the adjudicator that he could always see jumbo and she would never ever leave New Zealand . Prior to all this Harry Weber did off er Jumbo back to Tony , complete with her new trailor including any money owing , Tony explained he could never take her back because he no longer had a circus and his health was against him . Harry Weber was in a panic because the Loritz circus was finishing its tour in New Zealand , by that time he was well within breach of his agreement and the rest happened so quickly , three times Tony has gone and helped with Jumbo , to save the situation and peoples lives , and with out any compensation for his time , and he has never asked for any either .This time if their is another accident fatal or otherwise , you will see some heads roll in Government Departments , I promise every one of you the man is not stupid , and has files a mile long , i will be interested to see how both Tony and Jumbo unfold with regard to the future , I do know the Sanctuary in AMERICA has said they will welcome Tony with open arms .
 
the hold up as TONY tells me , is that Jenny needs to approve an M.P.I. approved ELEPHANT MANAGER , who should be some one who can tell Tony how to do his job and what seat to sit in on the plane , and who can accompany him as his assistant ., who knows Tony may not even be suitable to the ELEPHANT MANAGER ? its far from a done deal that I CAN ASSURE YOU ALL .
 
no he will not be working with mila , but it may happen that he would work with jumbo , but as i said prior , nothing is confirmed only that they would build at their cost through Tonys brother ROBIN , a crate for her to be flown in to the States , I understand that their has been no crate training , even though Helen said that Mila has been crate trained , so confusing , I wonder after all the lies about Tony , if they will admit they were wrong and use him , I think that this is the big hold up , Jenny Chung is the only person that knows what is going to happen , and i wonder if jumbo and her welfare and safe transition is even in the frame of consideration .
 
sharonbm said:
Thanks for the explanation. It begs another question tho. As Tony was looking for a retirement home for the elephant, who was he training or preparing to look after her in the event he was no longer able to? For the elephant to be surrounded by others in the circus, surely someone else or many others should have been working with the elephant so when Tony was no longer able to she wouldn't be traumatized or unwilling and angry to be worked by others?

My understanding is that is the philosophy for captive elephant care now and has been for many years now, that elephants need to be part of a social group which involves more than one handler to avoid the situation that happened at Helensville?
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You are partly correct.

Frank was Tony's fully trained back up. He was/is reliable, loyal, consistent and both Tony and Jumbo could and did rely on him.

Tony had endeavoured to train a number of other people, who's names I will not mention here to spare their egos. None of these people had the patience, the skill or the sensitivity needed to work with this particular elephant. When Tony sold Jumbo to Weber, one of their commitments was to source suitable "group members" for her - even to the extent of bringing people from Africa if necessary.

You are quite correct in your understanding that elephants, as social animals, need to be part of a group. Ethologists, and even the law here in Australia, have recognised that the group does not have to comprise other elephants. Suitable humans are very satisfactory group members for suitable elephants.

The situation that happened at Helensville could have been avoided if honourable people had been involved and if Tony had been shown common courtesy in the first place. These factors were absent and the elephant suffered as a result.
 
sharonbm said:
Fascinating. So he is going to work with Mila once the new handler has been employed?
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It is my understanding that the offer that has been made to MPI/Franklin Zoo/Auckland Zoo is that Tony will be the elephant manager and Frank will be his keeper. They are to be paid a fair salary for the time they spend on the project - no huge rip-off "fee". Robin will build an IATA approved travel crate for Jumbo at no cost. Tony and Frank will accompany her to PAWS if that is the agreed final destination for her. Tony has absolutely no problem about her going to PAWS. His offer to condition and accompany Jumbo is not without personal cost because does not like flying one little bit! However, he will do what needs to be done for the elephant.

Tony, Frank and Robin will NOT be involved if another elephant manager or support staff not to their approval is/are appointed. Tony, quite rightly, will not be second guessed by anyone in his working with Jumbo. Particularly if, as seems possible, the person appointed above him will be an administrative elephant "expert".

As Frank has pointed out, Jenny Chung has yet to accept this offer. This whole saga could drag on for months yet. It doesn't have to.

I believe that you are acquainted with Jenny Chung. You could have a word in her ear for the elephant's sake.
 
Surely after the death of Helen, no keeper Tony or otherwise will be working the elephant free contact, so why the great need for Tony?
 
ToddNZ said:
Surely after the death of Helen, no keeper Tony or otherwise will be working the elephant free contact, so why the great need for Tony?
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Have you been following this thread?

Tony Ratcliffe will get the job done quickly - thus saving the need for the begging for funds that has been going on.

The elephant knows him and responds positively to him - thus minimising the stress to her during the conditioning and eventual transfer.

His brother will build a crate free of charge - even less humiliating begging required.

Need I go on??
 
sorry, I don't know how to do those quote things, but frankwilliam you said:

'three times Tony has gone and helped with Jumbo, to save the situation and peoples lives'

I know of two times, one at Helensville, one when the ele arrived at FZ, but what was the other? And was someone's life at risk then?
 
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