Pros and cons of animals in captivity

[chip]

When thinking about conservation, one has to think about the whole population, not the individual animal. What's different about humans hunting an animal versus say a lion hunting them? If I were the animal, I would prefer the human method of a quick shot as opposed to the disemboweling done by a big cat.

Well someone quoted the Pere David Deer as being saved by whoever.

Saved so they go up for target practice?
so how does Texas Hunt Lodge help the great cause?
Is it a charity?

You think its the same deal, Lions taking animals in the wild.

The Lion usually hunts for its dinner.
I assume the clientele of Texas Hunt Lodge has filled up on a big mac first.

or Wild Bill Hicock and his kids killing them with all manner of weapons.

 

[jbnbsn99]

Here is how it works. The hunting ranches hold the majority of the animals in captivity. This is undisputed. Zoos will never match their numbers or their potential number. The ranches have to have some monetary incentive to keep these animals, which is where hunting comes in. If the keeping of these animals actually is profitable, then they will continue to keep these animals. The moment you take away the market/profitability then the ranchers will no longer keep these animals. Not keeping them means a massive cull (i.e. killing the whole population). I think any conservationist will agree that killing off a few select individuals is far, far better than killing off the entire population. Some of these ranches cannot sustain large populations, so selecting a few individuals for a hunt actually helps the population. Don't think this is just an American thing either. Woburn Abbey (the so-called savior of the Milu) does an annual cull of their herd. I don't know if they allow game hunters or not, but if they do, why shouldn't they get some monetary benefit from doing it.

All this said, I don't like hunters, but I would rather have them work with us than against us, and they want it the same way.

 

[chip]

Thank you for the information

I am familiar with culling to control deer herds etc, but still cannot accept the killing of a Zebra for example, for fun.

I dont think you can kill animals like Zebra for fun in the UK.

I can't understand why anyone would want to either, but some do. It's the same way that I can't understand why anyone would want to watch soccer, but evidently, some do.

 

[jbnbsn99]

Sorry, I hit the edit button instead of the quote button.

 

[chip]

Its about how we value life


cant stand soccer or baseball!

 

[kiwipo]

Having visited Jersey, I am well aware of the zoo you mentioned.

No way do I condone the actions of the idiot animal activists you mentioned, in fact I witnessed the consequences of their actions by seeing a mink taking a moorhen at the bottom of my garden.

I applaud your belief in China animal activists.

Is this the same China that accepts the LIVE skinning of dogs?

And America saved them for what reason?
Texas Hunt Lodge - Texas Exotic Hunts - Texas Whitetail Hunts - Elk Hunts - Kerrville, Texas - Texas Hunting Lodge

TO SHOOT THEM FOR FUN


SHOOT A PERE DAVID DEER FOR ONLY $5500...WHAT A BARGAIN

Here is an example of the menu from a conservation setup, [it makes me sick]..............
Aoudad - $2950
Axis - Male $2500 Female $350 (when hunting a trophy)
Blackbuck - Male $2000
Blesbuck Male - $5000
Buffalo - $4000
Dybowski Sika Male -$1750
Eland - $3950
Elk - Male $1000 to $10,500
Fallow standard $2500
Fallow elite $3500
Gemsbok - $5500
Ibex hybrid (YO Ibex) - $2000
Impala Male $4500
Mouflon - $2500
Nilgai - $3500
Nubian Ibex - $8500
Red Sheep - $3500
Red Stag - Male $3500 to $20,000
Zebra Male - $3750......YES, A ZEBRA


ISNT THAT CLEVER?

I would rather see them extinct than have them used for fun shooting [often in the name of conservation]

Like I said..........IN MY OPINION.......I would rather see animals extinct than debased to the levels you can witness in the World today.


I am not a member of any cranky groups as you seem to imply, but merely accept that man has done irrepairable damage to the rest of the animal kingdom, damage that cant be undone by "conservationists" no matter what you think.

I accept your claim you are not a member of any crazy cranky group, you are crazily cranky enough on your own without support from a group.

Its stupid to say you would rather see animals extinct than see the levels they are debased in some places in the world today. Not everyone debases or is cruel to animals.
you might as well support the wiping out of the human race because human rights are breeched in some parts of the world.

Shooting animals for fun.

It happens, it has always happened, and it always will happen.
For the fist couple of decades of my life I was closely involved with canned hunting, mainly of lions, but some other species as well.

I definitely don't agree with canned hunting, but it is a better alternative to shooting animals in the wild and stuffing up the ecosystem.

We breed sheep, cattle and pigs for eating, and hunting farms breed various species for sport shooting, and they usually make a lot of money out of it.

Canned hunting in South Africa is not as widespread as it used to be, but there is no doubt the money paid by hunters to shoot exotic animals has paid for game reserves, fences, rangers and lodges.

Many of the tourism game reserves started off as hunting reserves, since hunting brings in far more money per client than tourism for a lot of reserves it was the best way to make money.

As for Pere David Deer, being shot in hunting farms in the US, those animals are privately owned, and have nothing to do with the conservation program.

The Pere David Deer were not saved only to be shot by hunters, that is just the unfortunate fate of some of the deer who are owned by hunting farms. The entire saved species is not headed the same way.
So they were not saved just to go up for target practice as you seem to misguidedly think.

 

[kiwipo]

Thank you for the information

I am familiar with culling to control deer herds etc, but still cannot accept the killing of a Zebra for example, for fun.

I dont think you can kill animals like Zebra for fun in the UK.

I can't understand why anyone would want to either, but some do. It's the same way that I can't understand why anyone would want to watch soccer, but evidently, some do.

Just because you personally can't understand hunting, doesn't mean people who like hunting will stop.
I don't like hunting, though I have shot quite a few animals in my time including lions and other exotic species.
However I didn't do it for fun, yet I have friends and relations who do, and my family has been involved for many years with hunting.

You seem to have a narrow minded view on the world,
Not all Chinese are cruel to animals,
Not all animals are saved from extinction to be hunted.
Not all zoos are involved in conservation,
Not all zoo are not involved in conservation.

You said you visited the Jersey Zoo, sounds like you wandered around with your eyes blinkered and your ears blocked.

Wiser heads on here have dismissed you as an idiot and decided not to bother with you,
but I have time to kill and my occupation has gotten me well used to fools and cretins, so I can tolerate your ramblings and rantings even though I know you will never be convinced there is any correct opinion other than your own.

 

[elefante]

Here is how it works. The hunting ranches hold the majority of the animals in captivity. This is undisputed. Zoos will never match their numbers or their potential number. The ranches have to have some monetary incentive to keep these animals, which is where hunting comes in. If the keeping of these animals actually is profitable, then they will continue to keep these animals. The moment you take away the market/profitability then the ranchers will no longer keep these animals. Not keeping them means a massive cull (i.e. killing the whole population). I think any conservationist will agree that killing off a few select individuals is far, far better than killing off the entire population. Some of these ranches cannot sustain large populations, so selecting a few individuals for a hunt actually helps the population. Don't think this is just an American thing either. Woburn Abbey (the so-called savior of the Milu) does an annual cull of their herd. I don't know if they allow game hunters or not, but if they do, why shouldn't they get some monetary benefit from doing it.

All this said, I don't like hunters, but I would rather have them work with us than against us, and they want it the same way.

My problem with these "hunting" ranches is that this is not hunting. The animals have no chance of escape as they are behind a high fence. With hunting the animal has a chance of escape. I'm a hunter myself and most of us agree with the idea of "fair chase" which these hunting ranches do not do. I understand the idea of putting a value on the animals in order to have an incentive to keep the population around. However, a hunting ranch is not the way to do it.

 

[jbnbsn99]

Find a place in the US that doesn't have a fence around it.

 

[elefante]

Find a place in the US that doesn't have a fence around it.

Come on out to Wyoming and I'll show you plenty of areas without fences. Even the fences you do see here are short enough that deer and elk can jump over them and antelope go under them.

 

[kiwipo]

My problem with these "hunting" ranches is that this is not hunting. The animals have no chance of escape as they are behind a high fence. With hunting the animal has a chance of escape. I'm a hunter myself and most of us agree with the idea of "fair chase" which these hunting ranches do not do. I understand the idea of putting a value on the animals in order to have an incentive to keep the population around. However, a hunting ranch is not the way to do it.

The clients that go to those places don't want the animal to escape, they want to shoot it, mount it's head on a board and display it in their den.

They aren't interested in the thrill of the stalk, some of them can't even walk far and are driven up to the animal and shoot it from the back of a truck.

Where there is profit involved, there will be people who will provide the service.

I have never agreed or liked canned hunts, and I have been involved in enough of them. I've had to shoot animals that were wounded because the "hunter" missed a sitting target at fifty yards.
And I have watched animals die in agony after being body shot to avoid ruining a trophy head.

Not something I was ever proud of or happy about, but it was the family business and it provided an income in the same way as breeding cattle for the meat industry does to beef farmers.

However on the plus side today, my brother and his son who have more or less taken over the family farm are not hunters either. In fact most hunters become non hunters as they get older and often turn to conservation.

The family farm in very recent times has reduced hunting to almost nil, culling of excess animals for flora protection only, and now is primarily a breeding centre for several valuable species, as well as a small tourism venture involving viewing rather than killing animals.

But it would never have been possible to buy the extra land needed to extend the property, build the game fences and other structures required, buy the animals and pay the staff without the proceeds of hunting.

And when I say buy animals, most private reserves in Africa have to buy their wild animals to stock their property, game sales where you can buy anything from a did dik to an elephant are common.
Some are bought for hunting, but most are for breeding.

 

[kiwipo]

Come on out to Wyoming and I'll show you plenty of areas without fences. Even the fences you do see here are short enough that deer and elk can jump over them and antelope go under them.

But can you legally hunt in those areas, and if so is it safe?

years ago during a visit to the US I accompanied a Deputy Sheriff up into the hills in San Bernardino Ca, and we came across over a dozen or so hunters in the space of a couple of hours.
I asked him what they would shoot up there, and he replied "Mostly each other"

 

[elefante]

But can you legally hunt in those areas, and if so is it safe?

years ago during a visit to the US I accompanied a Deputy Sheriff up into the hills in San Bernardino Ca, and we came across over a dozen or so hunters in the space of a couple of hours.
I asked him what they would shoot up there, and he replied "Mostly each other"

It depends on where you are, but you can hunt in a lot of those areas. There are some areas that have too many hunters that can be dangerous but we have lots of open space for everyone. I was going to point out also that even in states like Iowa where there are lots of people and farms, the fences still allow deer to hop them so it is still fair chase and not like the high fences on a hunting ranch.

 

[chip]

The clients that go to those places don't want the animal to escape, they want to shoot it, mount it's head on a board and display it in their den.

They aren't interested in the thrill of the stalk, some of them can't even walk far and are driven up to the animal and shoot it from the back of a truck.

Where there is profit involved, there will be people who will provide the service.

I have never agreed or liked canned hunts, and I have been involved in enough of them. I've had to shoot animals that were wounded because the "hunter" missed a sitting target at fifty yards.
And I have watched animals die in agony after being body shot to avoid ruining a trophy head.

Not something I was ever proud of or happy about, but it was the family business and it provided an income in the same way as breeding cattle for the meat industry does to beef farmers.

However on the plus side today, my brother and his son who have more or less taken over the family farm are not hunters either. In fact most hunters become non hunters as they get older and often turn to conservation.

The family farm in very recent times has reduced hunting to almost nil, culling of excess animals for flora protection only, and now is primarily a breeding centre for several valuable species, as well as a small tourism venture involving viewing rather than killing animals.

But it would never have been possible to buy the extra land needed to extend the property, build the game fences and other structures required, buy the animals and pay the staff without the proceeds of hunting.

And when I say buy animals, most private reserves in Africa have to buy their wild animals to stock their property, game sales where you can buy anything from a did dik to an elephant are common.
Some are bought for hunting, but most are for breeding.

Oh well, that makes you an expert,and gives you the right to personaly insult anyone you dont agree with.

 

[jbnbsn99]

Chip, please keep it civil. There is nothing at all insulting about Kiwipo's post.

 

[chip]

Chip, please keep it civil. There is nothing at all insulting about Kiwipo's post.

I love civility, hope I wasnt anything but civil.

Some of kiwipo`s posts........

"but I have time to kill and my occupation has gotten me well used to fools and cretins, "


" you are crazily cranky enough on your own without support from a group".


appear to be a little less than civil.

 

[Hix]

I love civility, hope I wasnt anything but civil.

Some of kiwipo`s posts........

"but I have time to kill and my occupation has gotten me well used to fools and cretins, "


" you are crazily cranky enough on your own without support from a group".


appear to be a little less than civil.

Well, considering your steadfast refusal to even consider any other viewpoint, I think he's been remarkably restrained.



Hix

 

[khakibob]

They aren't interested in the thrill of the stalk, some of them can't even walk far and are driven up to the animal and shoot it from the back of a truck.

Where there is profit involved, there will be people who will provide the service.

I have never agreed or liked canned hunts, and I have been involved in enough of them. I've had to shoot animals that were wounded because the "hunter" missed a sitting target at fifty yards.
And I have watched animals die in agony after being body shot to avoid ruining a trophy head.

Not something I was ever proud of or happy about, but it was the family business and it provided an income in the same way as breeding cattle for the meat industry does to beef farmers.

There is a Hunting association in NZ with codes of practice regarding the behaviour in above comments.I can see why your family has changed direction.Apart from being sickened by the above practice,the regulatory bodies would have caught up with you over these practices.

The codes of practice for game reserves in most countries,concern minimum size of enclosures,harvest strategies,carrying capacities,ethical standards for the humane treatment of animals,restocking/purchases,as well as monitoring the flora & fauna in these reserves to ensure sustainability.

"Fair chase" is most easily explained by saying "if the outcome of the hunt is predetermined, then its not a hunt."
"Canned" & "Hunt" are contradictory terms,& used by both sides of the debate to muddy the discussion.

This has become an animal liberation discussion,as there can be no doubt about the conservation benefits of well run game reserves.One only has to look at the recent purchase of Oryx & Addax from safari operators by our major zoo in Aus (many other examples too) too see zoos are consumers of game parks & often steal or hide the credit for conservation & restoration from this side of the industry.Animal liberationists are not just concerned whether its captive,or "canned",about livestock, or a pet,the adgenda is to make the value of an animals life equal to a human child.As chip has explained in an earlier post they would rather see the extinction of a species than eruptive populations used ethically & sustainably.

Cheers Khakibob

 

[kiwipo]

Oh well, that makes you an expert,and gives you the right to personaly insult anyone you dont agree with.

I am sorry if you felt insulted by my comments, but sometimes the truth does hurt.

I am not an expert, but I have hunted animals, have shot a number of different species from elephants to Impala, have been involved in the organisation and carrying out canned and wild hunts, including green hunts,
Have been involved in the breeding and caring for some species including lions and buffalo, capturing and relocating various species including elephants and rhino, and assisted with animal sales and game auctions.
I've worked as a tour guide in South Africa, and hold a FGASA level 2 Field Guide rating with trails guide, dangerous animal, and advanced weapon handling endorsements.
Despite my hunting background, which I never enjoyed nor am I proud of, I am a keen conservationist.
I have also been a keen visitor to zoos and animal parks around the world, not only in the animals but in the management and policies.
I have been closely associated with Animal Rights people in NZ, including some of the more fanatical and what I would call obsessed individuals, (who hold similar opinions to yourself)

Of course none of this makes me an expert, but it has given me a first hand look at various sides of the argument on keeping animals in captivity.

 

[kiwipo]

There is a Hunting association in NZ with codes of practice regarding the behaviour in above comments.I can see why your family has changed direction.Apart from being sickened by the above practice,the regulatory bodies would have caught up with you over these practices.Cheers Khakibob

I hope you did note my references to canned hunting of Lion, which of course means my family business wasn't in NZ.
They are based in South Africa, and while the regulations concerning some forms of canned hunting have tightened up, its still legal to go and pay to shoot an animal in a fenced in enclosure.

The regulations for canned lion hunts for example state the size of the enclosure, and require that the lion be released and left to wander free for a set period before being hunted.


But as for codes and regs pertaining to NZ hunting, are their any apart from the firearms laws and laws relating to hunting on specific land?

The Hunting Association you refer too I think is just a volunteer body with no enforcement powers over hunters. The codes of practice they endorse are for their members and I presume would only result in loss of membership.

I know of deer farmers who charge good money to have overseas hunters come over and shoot their old breeding stags.

They are often just shot in an ordinary paddock which may or may not have some bush cover.

A friend of mine who organises hunts of his old breeding stags tells me he has to be quick to get to the carcase first so he can remove the ear tags. The triumphant hunter is then photographed with his trophy, before it is taken away to be mounted for shipping home.