If informations about the breeding programm were available they would also have to inform about their inbreeding programm: Elephants (Tierpark), lions (Zoo).
What motivates a zoo to leave the EEP as it has been f.i. done with the elephants?
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If informations about the breeding programm were available they would also have to inform about their inbreeding programm: Elephants (Tierpark), lions (Zoo).
What motivates a zoo to leave the EEP as it has been f.i. done with the elephants?
@Taisha: I'll respond to you as soon as you give a substantial and acceptable answer to my final remarks in your "private thread" (for memory's sake: They were in turn a response to some rather ridiculous and offensive/ insulting remarks from you). For so long I don't see a basis for any discussion no matter what concrete point it is that you raise. In fact I would have thought of banning you if I were an administrator of this forum, but luckily I'm not and so I can just ignore you for now.
@Pertinax: I totally agree with you in both points:
-The conditions should be improved as any animal should be enabled to employ a wide range of natural behavior.
-Said mangabeys have a large enclosure with at least some useful elements and they have a good group structure. So they don't exactly suffer, while they would of course potentially develop even better with more adequate facilities for climbing etc.
@Petthebird: Your remarks have triggered something which I had in mind for quite some time. In fact, each time someone formulated a general critique on the Tierpark I listened and responded to the concrete aspects of that critique. But I also often thouht it might be a good idea to get more into depth rather than scratch the surface each time. So I formulated a starting thesis and compiled a visual data base for such a discussion. So if anyone really likes to we can get in depth now (also this means that this thread could be more focused on actual news)
So here we go:
http://www.zoochat.com/109/animal-husbandry-educational-efforts-tierpark-293004/#post600631
@Pertinax: I totally agree with you in both points:
-The conditions should be improved as any animal should be enabled to employ a wide range of natural behavior.
-Said mangabeys have a large enclosure with at least some useful elements and they have a good group structure. So they don't exactly suffer, while they would of course potentially develop even better with more adequate facilities for climbing etc.
@Petthebird: Your remarks have triggered something which I had in mind for quite some time. In fact, each time someone formulated a general critique on the Tierpark I listened and responded to the concrete aspects of that critique. But I also often thouht it might be a good idea to get more into depth rather than scratch the surface each time. So I formulated a starting thesis and compiled a visual data base for such a discussion. So if anyone really likes to we can get in depth now (also this means that this thread could be more focused on actual news)
So here we go:
http://www.zoochat.com/109/animal-husbandry-educational-efforts-tierpark-293004/#post600631
I may be repetitive, but the problem is not many good enclosures, but bad enclosures.
Normal priority at most zoos, with the common sense, would be improving worst exhibits before building new ones. This is not the case in Berlin. And this policy is doubly indefensible because needed improvements are so few and not done for years - when eg. Zoo Gelsenkirchen was fully rebuilt during this time.
Another surprise is near-absence of environmental enrichment. It is now standard at the zoo world, and costs a tiny fraction of the running costs of a zoo.
And is it just me who notices that it is impossible to enlarge the big cat cages at Alfred-Brehm-House to the proper standard because of the layout of the building? Possibly completely new cat building should be built eg. near the gibbon island, and the cages at the Alfred-Brehm-House should be rebuilt for some smaller mammals.
I however agree with markmeier that the education at Tierpark is of a good standard. Many large plates with hand-painted scenes of eg. life of takins or monkeys are very effective. It is not in the style of the entertainment and photos, but it is certainly interesting and informative.
Normal priority at most zoos, with the common sense, would be improving worst exhibits before building new ones. This is not the case in Berlin. And this policy is doubly indefensible because needed improvements are so few and not done for years - when eg. Zoo Gelsenkirchen was fully rebuilt during this time.
Another surprise is near-absence of environmental enrichment. It is now standard at the zoo world, and costs a tiny fraction of the running costs of a zoo.
And is it just me who notices that it is impossible to enlarge the big cat cages at Alfred-Brehm-House to the proper standard because of the layout of the building? Possibly completely new cat building should be built eg. near the gibbon island, and the cages at the Alfred-Brehm-House should be rebuilt for some smaller mammals.
I however agree with markmeier that the education at Tierpark is of a good standard. Many large plates with hand-painted scenes of eg. life of takins or monkeys are very effective. It is not in the style of the entertainment and photos, but it is certainly interesting and informative.
It is quite possible one is not a fan of the enclosures at Tierpark Berlin, I reject though that they are bad enclosures. The latter is more the perception of the visitor. Tierpark Berlin's enclosures are exemplary for large animal breeding and husbandry AND perhaps hence not so attractive to the visitor.
I have yet to see any fundamental research about visitor perceptions at Tierpark Berlin. Has there been any marketing research done by the zoo concerned?
On a side note: we do not seem to talk animal collection either - save for esteemed markmeier - which in my opinion is way above f.i. your average Swedish zoo (though admittedly I love Scandinavia and their particular set type of zoo / animal park).
I have yet to see any fundamental research about visitor perceptions at Tierpark Berlin. Has there been any marketing research done by the zoo concerned?
On a side note: we do not seem to talk animal collection either - save for esteemed markmeier - which in my opinion is way above f.i. your average Swedish zoo (though admittedly I love Scandinavia and their particular set type of zoo / animal park).
It is quite possible one is not a fan of the enclosures at Tierpark Berlin, I reject though that they are bad enclosures. The latter is more the perception of the visitor. Tierpark Berlin's enclosures are exemplary for large animal breeding and husbandry AND perhaps hence not so attractive to the visitor.
I have yet to see any fundamental research about visitor perceptions at Tierpark Berlin. Has there been any marketing research done by the zoo concerned?
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No really I cant agree, the big cat house IS upsettingly bad, sure maybe more from a visitor viewpoint, but for the cats too, can you imagine sitting in that place all day with nothing to do and nowhere to hide, is it anything near to what they would naturally expect?
Who knows if Tierpark have done a survey on what the public feel, if they have I'd like to see it, but even markmeier says that many people in Berlin complain about conditions in the zoo.
But I once again also want to balance my comments by saying that I have serious problems with the bigcat house and also the manatee pool other than that it is really and enjoyable space, like others have said the problem areas need to be dealt with first, and it could be done quite cheaply.
A requested survey (Zoo and Tierpark) was dismissed just like hundreds of letters written f.i. by the polarbear fans who were the first really extensive public in years who through their regular visits started to notice the necessity for change.
The >natural< enrichment, the only enrichment accepted, looks different at Leipzig zoo.
Well I'm making my first visit to Leipzig at the start of December so I will be able to judge how it differs from Tierpark which I dont think is so good for polar bears, but far from the worst I guess, the Zoo's however is better than Tierpark's polar bear enclosure in my opinion.
By the way does anybody know how all the money made from Knut was spent? Was it all kept by the zoo or also used for Tierpark?
@Jurek7 and chizlit:
I hoped to have an in depth discussion in the new thread, but of course I will also respond on here. I agree that weak spots should receive a higher priority than expensive new projects (though I would not consider Brehm- or pachydermy-building minor little projects that can be dealt with that quickly or easily). Having said that, I believe the Tierpark so far did an amazing job at developing both old and new ares and facilities and apparently they also plan to continue in this manner. I just want to give some points that I feel should be reflected:
-No, improving the Brehm-building WON'T be cheap in fact and besides the financial dimension there are major logistical and legal challenges as well. Otherwise they long would have accomplished the original plans rather than just extending the outside boxes, I'm sure about that. The only point I feel can indeed be criticized is that they don't seem to have a good plan of slowly reducing the number of species or replacing them by smaller ones for time being (of course they shouldn't throw out breeding species or any cats as long as no other zoo can and will take them). They can still get new species when they have better accomodations for them or they could find new spots for species from cold regions like Siberian tigers or amur leopards which of course also are bigger than their counterparts from tropical regions. But again, I don't think the big cats presently lead a miserable life or suffer, but I do agree that it could and should be better - rather sooner than later.
-Improving the inside area of the pachydermy building WON'T be cheap and it may not even be possible due to architectural conditions. I don't feel, however, that either manatees, rhinos or elephants do suffer and lead a horrible life. They all seem quite alright to me.
-Gelsenkirchen (a far smaller zoo) also was a in a mess despite it being a "West zoo" and it was successfully rebuilt and rearranged, I agree. But it was also robbed of many important aspects in the process which would make up an entire new discussion.
-Please keep in mind how much actually has been improved in the last two decades. This encompasses almost all species which had provisional or insufficient accomodation so that today most species have luxury or very decent facilities compared to many/ most other zoos (I'm talking about the basic needs here, environmental enrichment is not necessarily included in this reflection which is not to say I don't consider it to be important).
-Africanum and the mountain areas alone constitute an entire zoo by the way (the Tierpark is by far the largest zoo in Germany) and if you think they were realized against the interests of existing species, think again. Or better, look at the way the giraffes or stellar's see eagles for example (or a great number of pre-existing species) are accomodated now and then compare it to historical pictures. I think it's no coincidence that stellar's see eagles breed regularly now, whereas they never did in their old box.
-The planned North American mountain area would also mainly house existing species (cougars, rocky mountain goats, sea eagles among others) and the same goes for the planned Southeast-Asia building (sun bears! and binturongs) but it would of course also introduce orangs and thus apes to the Tierpark again. And still these potential new attractions have a lower priority in the plans of the management than improving the boxes of the big cats.
Bearing all this in mind, and without just throwing precious breeding species out, what would you do better if you were in charge with rather limited funds? This is not intended as a provocative question. I'm genuinely interested even though it as an entirely hypothetical consideration which I would have preferred to lead in another thread.
I hoped to have an in depth discussion in the new thread, but of course I will also respond on here. I agree that weak spots should receive a higher priority than expensive new projects (though I would not consider Brehm- or pachydermy-building minor little projects that can be dealt with that quickly or easily). Having said that, I believe the Tierpark so far did an amazing job at developing both old and new ares and facilities and apparently they also plan to continue in this manner. I just want to give some points that I feel should be reflected:
-No, improving the Brehm-building WON'T be cheap in fact and besides the financial dimension there are major logistical and legal challenges as well. Otherwise they long would have accomplished the original plans rather than just extending the outside boxes, I'm sure about that. The only point I feel can indeed be criticized is that they don't seem to have a good plan of slowly reducing the number of species or replacing them by smaller ones for time being (of course they shouldn't throw out breeding species or any cats as long as no other zoo can and will take them). They can still get new species when they have better accomodations for them or they could find new spots for species from cold regions like Siberian tigers or amur leopards which of course also are bigger than their counterparts from tropical regions. But again, I don't think the big cats presently lead a miserable life or suffer, but I do agree that it could and should be better - rather sooner than later.
-Improving the inside area of the pachydermy building WON'T be cheap and it may not even be possible due to architectural conditions. I don't feel, however, that either manatees, rhinos or elephants do suffer and lead a horrible life. They all seem quite alright to me.
-Gelsenkirchen (a far smaller zoo) also was a in a mess despite it being a "West zoo" and it was successfully rebuilt and rearranged, I agree. But it was also robbed of many important aspects in the process which would make up an entire new discussion.
-Please keep in mind how much actually has been improved in the last two decades. This encompasses almost all species which had provisional or insufficient accomodation so that today most species have luxury or very decent facilities compared to many/ most other zoos (I'm talking about the basic needs here, environmental enrichment is not necessarily included in this reflection which is not to say I don't consider it to be important).
-Africanum and the mountain areas alone constitute an entire zoo by the way (the Tierpark is by far the largest zoo in Germany) and if you think they were realized against the interests of existing species, think again. Or better, look at the way the giraffes or stellar's see eagles for example (or a great number of pre-existing species) are accomodated now and then compare it to historical pictures. I think it's no coincidence that stellar's see eagles breed regularly now, whereas they never did in their old box.
-The planned North American mountain area would also mainly house existing species (cougars, rocky mountain goats, sea eagles among others) and the same goes for the planned Southeast-Asia building (sun bears! and binturongs) but it would of course also introduce orangs and thus apes to the Tierpark again. And still these potential new attractions have a lower priority in the plans of the management than improving the boxes of the big cats.
Bearing all this in mind, and without just throwing precious breeding species out, what would you do better if you were in charge with rather limited funds? This is not intended as a provocative question. I'm genuinely interested even though it as an entirely hypothetical consideration which I would have preferred to lead in another thread.
@Kifaru Bwana: I also wonder if some modern enclosures/ structures that are well received by the visitor (e.g. moat vs. fence, useless gimmicks, "fake" materials) are not even less functional for the animals in some cases. But this only can be properly discussed if concrete examples are raised and for now I'm a bit tired of doing extensive research. An interesting point, though 
Well maybe the rhino's and manatees do not have a that bad indoor enclosure, but the elephant certainly have. All elephants are separated, even mothers and youngsters, they have almost no space and a concretelike floor, no enrichment except food. It is easily one of the worst elephant indoors I have seen. THe outside enclosures are also barren with no structure, except a pool and a total lack of enrichment.
But allmost all hoofstock here has enclosures without any structure, they are all simple large grassy/sandy paddocks with a shedd, exceptions are enclosures in the mountain area. Maybe the hoofstock does not suffer and it is not worse then in some other zoos, but it certainly can be improved quite a lot.
But allmost all hoofstock here has enclosures without any structure, they are all simple large grassy/sandy paddocks with a shedd, exceptions are enclosures in the mountain area. Maybe the hoofstock does not suffer and it is not worse then in some other zoos, but it certainly can be improved quite a lot.
@lintworm: I created an entire thread for this sort of discussion where I compiled a long list of pictures (link below). If you don't mind, why don't you pick some examples from there and describe what exactly it is you don't like about them and what sort of enrichment the ungulates etc. may miss? I'm a fan of concrete case-centered examples. Otherwise I don't know what to respond, because I don't know what exactly you have in mind when you criticize the enclosures. So far these discussions hardly ever get under the surface of "I think they are all old and boring enclosures that don't suit the animals or appeal to the visitor" or "No, I think most animals have adequate enclosures, though some things could still be improved." I have had that sort of debate so many times, it starts to get boring for me.
http://www.zoochat.com/109/animal-husbandry-educational-efforts-tierpark-293004/#post600845
http://www.zoochat.com/109/animal-husbandry-educational-efforts-tierpark-293004/#post600845
Zoo and Tierpark are completely separated financially. Thus the Zoo has its Knut millions and the Tierpark has to be supported with an even bigger sum of money by Berlin senate.
Considering this fact it appears even more strange, that the officials should have decided to have only one director for both institutions.
When Knut was still alive, the Zoo claimed, they would use the money for new buildings. But who knows...
sooty mangabey
Well-Known Member
And just what did those "polarbear fans" know about the keeping of wild animals in captivity? Thomas Carlyle once wrote that he did not believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance; I don't think he was specifically referring to those who laud, say, Gelsenkirchen zoo over Berlin because it looks "natural" (God help us!), but he might well have been.
Hi Markmeier,
I like Berlin Tierpark and especially praise it for bringing new rare species to EUrope, when almost all zoos are resigned to keeping the same pool of long-established species. Argali, Barbary deer, Chacoan peccaries, yellow-footed rock wallabies.
I hope you understand that general high standard of Berlin Tierpark and financial wealth of the city makes high expectations. What may pass in a small provincial zoo in Eastern Europe* is not acceptable in Berlin. Tierpark resembles a man who wears Armani suit, drives a BMW but has dirty socks full of holes.
*just kidding, many East European zoos have buildings and breeding groups on the level of the best German zoos. Think ungulates at Dvur Kralove, rainforest hall at Zlin, pyramid at Sosto, or some projects at Prague.
I like Berlin Tierpark and especially praise it for bringing new rare species to EUrope, when almost all zoos are resigned to keeping the same pool of long-established species. Argali, Barbary deer, Chacoan peccaries, yellow-footed rock wallabies.
I hope you understand that general high standard of Berlin Tierpark and financial wealth of the city makes high expectations. What may pass in a small provincial zoo in Eastern Europe* is not acceptable in Berlin. Tierpark resembles a man who wears Armani suit, drives a BMW but has dirty socks full of holes.
*just kidding, many East European zoos have buildings and breeding groups on the level of the best German zoos. Think ungulates at Dvur Kralove, rainforest hall at Zlin, pyramid at Sosto, or some projects at Prague.
Is the Managabey enclosure shown on this link? I can't find the original photo I mentioned.
I think it is one of those sadly frequent cases in Zoos(not just Tierpark) where so much more could be done to allow a primate species full use of enclosure space. I was equally critical about a fancy new Siamang enclosure at Marwell Park in the UK where there was virtually no climbing/swinging opportunities. To my mind it is rather like putting birds in Aviaries without any perches for them..
@Jurek:
"I hope you understand that general high standard of Berlin Tierpark and financial wealth of the city makes high expectations. What may pass in a small provincial zoo in Eastern Europe* is not acceptable in Berlin. Tierpark resembles a man who wears Armani suit, drives a BMW but has dirty socks full of holes.
*just kidding, many East European zoos have buildings and breeding groups on the level of the best German zoos. Think ungulates at Dvur Kralove, rainforest hall at Zlin, pyramid at Sosto, or some projects at Prague."
In fact Berlin as a city isn't doing that well economically. Some 60 BIO debts and an average income per capita close to the rest of Europe (nothing like Frankfurt, Munich or Hamburg). Soon they aren't allowed any new debts and the funding for the Tierpark will be further reduced (as it has been for years anyways). The new master plan also was first forced upon the tierpark and after they presented it the city government immediately stated they won't pay for it...
So if it was only dirty socks with holes I would be glad (hardly anyone would notice them unless they smell too bad ) but I think Armani suits and BMW rather apply to some other zoos that easily invest dozens of millions for new projects that are usually both well suited for the animals AND quite impressive/ entertaining for the visitors (in some cases with more emphasis on the latter). In my eyes the tierpark rather resembles a guy with somewhat worn out jeans and an old but still running Volkswagen - not necessarily with overly dirty socks or underwear, though (it's still doing the job very well, but it's not gonna win any beauty contest).
@Pertinax: I linked the entire new thread on animal husbandry starting with a post that contains many pictures (just try it, I did not program any virus ). If you scroll down a bit until you get to primates and then monkey house you will find some pictures of the outside boxes. I'm not sure if the one you mean is on there, but I took all I deemed representative so it might well be.
"I hope you understand that general high standard of Berlin Tierpark and financial wealth of the city makes high expectations. What may pass in a small provincial zoo in Eastern Europe* is not acceptable in Berlin. Tierpark resembles a man who wears Armani suit, drives a BMW but has dirty socks full of holes.
*just kidding, many East European zoos have buildings and breeding groups on the level of the best German zoos. Think ungulates at Dvur Kralove, rainforest hall at Zlin, pyramid at Sosto, or some projects at Prague."
In fact Berlin as a city isn't doing that well economically. Some 60 BIO debts and an average income per capita close to the rest of Europe (nothing like Frankfurt, Munich or Hamburg). Soon they aren't allowed any new debts and the funding for the Tierpark will be further reduced (as it has been for years anyways). The new master plan also was first forced upon the tierpark and after they presented it the city government immediately stated they won't pay for it...
So if it was only dirty socks with holes I would be glad (hardly anyone would notice them unless they smell too bad
) but I think Armani suits and BMW rather apply to some other zoos that easily invest dozens of millions for new projects that are usually both well suited for the animals AND quite impressive/ entertaining for the visitors (in some cases with more emphasis on the latter). In my eyes the tierpark rather resembles a guy with somewhat worn out jeans and an old but still running Volkswagen - not necessarily with overly dirty socks or underwear, though (it's still doing the job very well, but it's not gonna win any beauty contest). @Pertinax: I linked the entire new thread on animal husbandry starting with a post that contains many pictures (just try it, I did not program any virus
). If you scroll down a bit until you get to primates and then monkey house you will find some pictures of the outside boxes. I'm not sure if the one you mean is on there, but I took all I deemed representative so it might well be.markmeier If you scroll down a bit until you get to [B said:
I did that and the photo I was referring to isn't there. But one or two others could show the Mangabey enclosure from a different perspective, although I enlarged them I could not identify the Monkey species. It didn't look like the same enclosure though. Generally these outdoor primate enclosures seem spacious enough, but with not much climbing 'furniture.'
The Gelada enclosure with a rockpile looks fine however, as this is an essentially terrestrial species.
I also always have a hard time to identify which enclosure is for which species on the pictures (unfortunately they all resemble each other which isn't a good thing if some species mainly live on the ground while others prefer the trees). It looks different when you stand in front of them.
While the outdoor enclosures may be debatable, the indoor enclosures, where a lot of of the monkeys spend most of their lifetime due to the European winter, are sheer horror.
The geladas f.i. are housed in such a small, naked room, that I wonder, isn't that against all European rules.
sooty mangabey
Well-Known Member
Oh for goodness sake! Horror? Really?
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